Budd Wheels Newbie Questions

[Forgotten Waypoints]

Ok, so I've been doing research and the more I do, the more confused I get. I understand the concept of a snap ring being safer than a split rim, but I have some questions regarding the inherent dangers of the snap ring and want to learn some best practices:

1) Inflating: Is the danger mainly when the bead is not set? IE: Do I need to worry if I put air in a low tire or I'm airing down and up after an off road trip?

2) Do I need to make my own lengthened air hose to fill the tire and have room to stand away? I hear "don't stand next to it when you air up", but every modern valve nowadays is 6" from the chuck, I don't see how you can air up a tire away from it without building your own extension hose.

3) I hear people say "wrap a chain around it". What kind of chain do you use (how thick?) and do you just go around the tire horizontally a couple of times?

I downloaded the military manuals that were online, and they only showed setting/replacing a tire, not safe practices for servicing in the field.

Eventually, I'd like to go with a modern rim, it sounds like Boyce Equipment has some in stock currently (11/24), that are 16.5x9.75 but at $350+ per wheel and again for the tire, that will probably be the last step in my restoration journey, so I want to learn how to safely deal with Budd wheels until then.

[PoW]

They are Goodyear LTS wheels, and are the safest lockring wheel ever.

A simple study can bring to light all the particulars about mounting & dismounting tires.

Very important are the proper tools to service them.

BTW, dropping pressure for off-roading is not the same as the initial air-up. No special ops are necessary there, other than a visual check that the ring is still in the proper position. In many thousands of miles in an M37 they never did come loose under low pressure.

PoW

[John Mc]

As for wrapping a chain around the wheel when remounting the tire:

When I was replacing the tires on my M37 a few years ago (under the watchful eye of Tim Holloway, who has probably done more of these than I'll ever see), we took a 3/8" chain and wrapped through one of the holes in the rim, our around the tire, back through the next hole and out again, repeating the process until the wheel and tire were surrounded in a spiral of chain, then hooked the chain back on to itself. I'm guessing it was a 20 ft chain, but can remember for sure of the length or whether there was some left over. This may have been overkill.

We had a tire chuck for the air hose that clipped on to the valve stem and an outlet on the wall for his shop air system that had a valve to shut the air on and off remotely from the tire. One of the keys is making sure the lock ring seats property in the channel on the rim as you inflate. I'd put a few PSI in the tire, stop and take a look, add some more, and go in stages until we were sure the ring was set properly in the channel and the tire bead was seating on the rim. Others here probably have a better description or technique.

I do remember that getting the old tires off was a real struggle. It's hard to find a tire shop that will work on these wheels. It seems either they or their insurance company just fails to distinguish between "split rims" (which are dangerous) and lock ring rims (which are significantly less so). If your tires have been on there a long time, you may want to see if you can at least convince a tire shop to break the bead for you. Not much danger there, since there is no pressure in the tires at that point. If you are doing old crusty tires yourself, one of these bead breaker tools is a big help (no idea if this brand is good or not, the link is just an example of something similar to the tool Tim had):
https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-Heavy-Duty ... RMXZC?th=1

When recently I had to remove one of my new tires from a rim to deal with a leak in the tube (they had only been on for a few years), I had no trouble doing so with just regular tire irons.

[Elwood]

1) Inflating: Is the danger mainly when the bead is not set? IE: Do I need to worry if I put air in a low tire or I'm airing down and up after an off road trip?

Yes, the crucial window is during initial inflation after re-assembling a rim and lock-ring. I've not seen a lock-ring rim disengage the lock-ring when the tire pressure is low. When I bought my M37, at least one of the tires showed almost no pressure, but the tire was so old and stiff, I had to use a sawzall to remove the tire carcass and bead. No way that lock-ring was coming off by itself, even with zero air pressure.

Keeping the lock-ring with the same rim it was previously mounted on is a good practice when changing tires.

2) Do I need to make my own lengthened air hose to fill the tire and have room to stand away? I hear "don't stand next to it when you air up", but every modern valve nowadays is 6" from the chuck, I don't see how you can air up a tire away from it without building your own extension hose.

That's what I do. As John Mc noted, a lock on chuck and a remote valve is the best way.

3) I hear people say "wrap a chain around it". What kind of chain do you use (how thick?) and do you just go around the tire horizontally a couple of times?

I use only 3/8" Grade 70 chain, mostly because it's the strongest commonly available size locally. A tire cage would be better, but they're expensive and take up a lot of floor space.

Wrap the chain around the tire and wheel, going through the wheel holes. The idea to is contain the explosive deflation which will happen if the lock ring fails to seat on the rim. Plenty of videos on youtube showing this type of failure to give you an idea of what could happen.

I downloaded the military manuals that were online, and they only showed setting/replacing a tire, not safe practices for servicing in the field.

Plenty of discussions on here about tires and wheels that can be found with the search function.

The May 2013 issue of the old Power Wagon Advertiser had a good article about changing tires on these lock-ring rims in the field. I'm not sure if the info is still available on line, but if you can't find it, let me know. Surprisingly, the OSHA website also had some good info on working with multi-piece rims.

[Elwood]

If you are doing old crusty tires yourself, one of these bead breaker tools is a big help (no idea if this brand is good or not, the link is just an example of something similar to the tool Tim had):
https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-Heavy-Duty ... RMXZC?th=1

I think Harbor Freight sells a very similar (if not identical) unit. I have no experience with either one.

[Forgotten Waypoints]

Thanks guys! I'll keep reading and searching. My main concern was a slow leak in a rear wheel and I want to make sure I can safely inflate it as I move to the garage and back.

That will give me time to decide if I learn how to deal with the split rings on my own (I doubt anyone locally will touch them) or invest in some of the custom rimless options.

[just me]

A very good and complete manual on tire/wheel servicing is available free from here.
www.AccurideCorp.com
https://www.accuridecorp.com/resources? ... angcode=en
The manual you want is W3.000 Accuride wheels safety service manual

[ashyers]

I believe I purchased the proper tire irons for the job from McMaster-Carr.

We do the wheels on a Hunter TC3700 tire machine and use plenty of tire paste. From my experience the bead captures the locking ring well before you even apply any air pressure, but we still keep the wheel locked to the machine and chain the assembly when we seat the bead.

The only issue we've had with the Budd wheels is they are not very round and or balanced. The balance likely doesn't make too much difference since the wheels don't spin too fast at my cruising speed (55), but you do get vibration due to the out of round condition at certain speeds. I have not been able to find anyone near me who is capable of "adjusting" the wheels, but I have seen a shop on the East coast that has the proper tools to do it.

Andy

Edit: Put plenty of talcum powder on the flap and tube so they don't stick to the tire/rim/each other. This will help prevent any folds/kinks and problems down the road.

[Cal_Gary]

Thanks Brent for reaching out on this topic! Improper work on mounting/airing up these rims will KILL you if you don't know what you're doing. Fortunately for you and me, there's a tire shop in Salt Lake City that still handles these types of jobs. Of course it's labor-intensive and at a cost but they guarantee their work and will even sandblast a crusty rim prior to remounting. I provided a new tire, tube, and flap the last time I needed them. I'll check my M37 journal and dig up the shop's name/address/phone number for you in case you want to go that route.

Now, for my own war stories: when I was active duty Army in the '70s and '80s guys would put together the assembly using the appropriate tire tools. The challenge always seemed to be that we never had a tire cage or a latching air valve around even though we had a motor pool and a 3rd echelon shop that I cut my teeth on for my entire Army career. So, the guys would put the assembled tire on the ground with the split ring and air stem down, drive an M715, M880, or Deuce and a half vehicle with one of the front wheels up on top of the assembly, then use the two-part air valve on the stem, holding a few feet of hose so they weren't directly over the rim. The belief being that if the assembly let go it wouldn't have enough force to lift the anchor vehicle off the exploding assembly. I witnessed dozens of tires inflated in this manner with never a problem but never did that myself.

I DID use the chain method myself to air up an assembled tire once. My chain was a DOT-approved binding chain that was long enough to cover the circumference twice. I aired it up in 5 pound increments, carefully checking the seat of the ring to ensure nothing was amiss. After reaching the recommended 45PSI I left the tire chained up overnight to be sure if it let go the chain would keep everything safe. That tire is on my M37 as I type, with no issues other than with 3,000 miles on it I'm at 50% tread life.

Finally, I now have a set of 5 combat rims awaiting some missing studs and a fresh set of tires whenever I decide to take the plunge. (Thanks again Chuck aka Travlr for providing the 5th rim)! Those rings are held on with studs and nuts and eliminates most of the danger of one going off when it is aired up. I like the look of the combat rims-they are getting hard to find.

Thanks for letting me ramble a bit,
Gary

P.S. I'm subscribed to your YouTube channel-two nice videos so far-well done!

[John Mc]

That tire is on my M37 as I type, with no issues other than with 3,000 miles on it I'm at 50% tread life.

50% tread life at 3000 miles! What's up with that?

[PoW]

That is typical for NDCC tactical tires that spend all their life on pavement.

PoW

[John Mc]

That is typical for NDCC tactical tires that spend all their life on pavement.

PoW

OK. I've only driven a couple dozen miles on that style of tires: a loaner set of wheels when I was working on replacing my Michelin tires.

They were great for that authentic look, but disappointing for traction - either on or off road.

[Cal_Gary]

Yeah POW is right-around 6,000 is the going rate on NDTs-mine are STA and wearing well.
Gary

[PoW]

Things could be worse, as with armor track life is around 500 mi. Less on the biggies.

PoW

[Forgotten Waypoints]

Thanks guys, this has been a great thread. I may head down to Ace Hardware after work and see if I can get some parts for a hose-up extension. I was mainly concerned with airing up the tire that has a slow leak. It seems I'm good to go there, but I'll get a remote hose anyway. I'll try to find a DOT chain too. I'm still a quite a ways away from deciding if I keep the original wheels or invest in a custom tubeless options.

Too bad I wasn't in the hobby a few years ago, those military surplus replacements looked awesome, but tracking them down they are either all gone or $400+ a wheel!