Picking the "Correct" Paint - Help Needed

[w30bob]

Hi Guys,

Ok.........sore subject I know........but I've got to figure this out. The time has come to pick the color for my M. I want to paint it the "correct color" it was painted when it was born. I've done a ton of research on what exactly that color should be.....and we all know there's tons of conflicting info out there. I've bought about a dozen different cans of OD spray paint from the usual vendors and sprayed each on a part of my M to see what they look like in real life (what you see on your monitor is rarely what these colors actually look like). After all this I still could not find the right color. And by "right" I mean what the truck is actually telling me, not what the "experts" say on the interweb.

You may remember I posted some pics of my tailgate not too long ago where I sanded thru all 7 or 8 layers of paint. I want to paint my truck the first color on that tailgate. I can tell you right up front it was NOT painted OD 2430 or 24087........not even close. So I told myself maybe the tailgate was a replacement.......and some replacement parts where painted various shades of OD. Then I went into my mountain of spare NOS parts and pulled out a few pieces of sheetmetal made the same time my truck was made......in 1952. When I compared the color of the NOS sheetmetal with the first color on my tailgate.......they matched! And not just "close" or "sort of, kind of".....they matched. So I'm fairly well convinced that's the color I want to paint my truck......but where can I find it?

I went down to the local auto paint store........man, that paint is expensive.........and showed the guy behind the counter the NOS radiator shroud and said.........can you match it? He said "probably", but would prefer if I had a paint code to start with......and I don't. I can tell they don't like making semi-gloss paints, and OD isn't something they make every week. So I'm not sure I trust those guys to get it right. So my question to you guys..........has anyone found any more recent (better) info on paint codes for M37s? The pics below show what I'm talking about in regards to the color I'm looking for.........nothing like the brown 2430 and way way lighter than 24087. It also doesn't match a number of WWII OD shades I tried....they're all too "green". This one is a more washed out green...........if you know what I mean.

thanks,
bob

[just me]

A good paint supplier will have a color analyser and can determine the paint mix with it. They are, in trained hands, incredibly accurate. That looks like the same color many of my NOS parts were painted.

[Cal_Gary]

I recall the Ahl Resto guide having a section on paint codes and pigment-I'll take a look this afternoon and post any pertinent info for you.
Gary

[Cal_Gary]

Sorry for the delay Bob but here's what I found for 24087 equivalents:
Ditzler DQE42955 enamel or DAL 42955 lacquer;
DuPont 93-29149 enamel or 246-29149 lacquer;
Rinshed Mason 2U-3742 enamel;
or ACME 22-1744 enamel.

Also recommended is to find a paint that is manufactured in accordance with FS595-A, for accuracy with the degree of flat paint pigmentation.

For your '52, I thought that the 23070 paint code was the correct one. I got that from the Rapco ad in Supply Line.

I apologize for the limited info.
Gary

[w30bob]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the info. I'll post some pics later of my most recent attempts at color matching. I'm not there yet, as you'll see. I'll check out the 23070 code.

regards,
bob

[k8icu]

Here is a sample of the 23070. It is of course a bad PC Pic, but you can see it's close to what you have. It is suppose to be late WWII through 1955 which would be correct for your truck. http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-1393970915 ... 3_14510926

After looking at the picture of the second color you posted I am wondering if your truck wasn't a USMC truck.
Here is a picture of USMC Semi-gloss green and it looks close to the color. It's 24052
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-1393970915 ... 3_21381708

And if you are certain that the color is that part. Take the part to a good paint supplier and have them color match it. The computers they have should be able to get you right on the money.

Good luck and let us know what you come up with.

Joe

[w30bob]

Hi Guys,

I think I keep having this paint conversation with myself every few months.............probably need to see a doctor about that.

I ordered two cans of 23070 from Rapco this morning and I'm spraying samples onto a NOS driver's door that is the color I want. I'll post a pic when I get home, but I can say for sure that the 2430 is close, but just a bit too brown. The 24087 is way off.....too dark. I also tried a bunch of WW2 OD shades I got from TM9 (now Midwest), and those were all too green. I checked my previous posts and found this same conversation from a year ago............got great responses and pics from a number of you guys. I think the 23070 will be the right color. But if not I'll drag my NOS door down to the paint mixer dude and get something mixed up as close as modern technology allows.

Now I need to hunt around and find out if I want to do a 2 part catalyzed urethane or something simpler. I did a lot of post reading last night on the various MV forums and it seems to be a mixed bag as to which type of paint works best. I'd like the durability of a catalyzed urethane, but the ease of a single stage paint. I'm probably making this way more complicated than need be........as I'm very good at that.

Thanks for your replies,
bob

[milstencil]

Hi Bob!
Everybody thinks about the "green" color, but nobody thinks about the primer.
Most of these trucks were painted with a RED primer which is not a complement to the green color,
meaning when you mix red and green you get BROWN. Therefore, your "green" will be on the brown side.
Try mixing a little red primer with the green top coat and see what you get.
Yellow primer (the 2 fenders are primed yellow) is a complement of green and will give you a more correct
looking "green" color.
I primed my whole truck yellow, to get the correct for me, USMC semi gloss green that I wanted.
You may have to play with the color of the primer to get the correct color, for you.
Everything is in the eye of the beholder!!
Rick

[w30bob]

Rick.........that's a great point! And you're right.......who thinks about the primer.......until AFTER you spray the topcoat and it doesn't look right. Now to stir the pot some more.........from what I can tell by looking at the old paint on both my AF M37 and my Army M37..........I'm going to throw out there that when the trucks were assembled at the Chrysler plant they didn't use Red Oxide primer. From what I can tell by sanding down the paint......the chassis and differentials were painted black before being sprayed OD. I doubt that black was a "primer" and more of a "rust preventative until painted". I know Red Oxide primer was used during depot rebuilds......but I'm just not finding any of it on my trucks when sanded down to the original color and then bare metal.

I'd love to hear from folks if they've found the same thing........or if I'm totally off base here. I've only got my 2 trucks to work from. My AF truck is all original (not repainted) on the chassis and underside, and I've documented the original black paint everywhere under the strata blue. My Army truck has been worked on before I got it, so finding areas of original paint is difficult, and when the gentleman before me owned it he did use red oxide to prime areas after he blasted them. If I get some time I'll drop David Doyle a note and see if he has any M37 assembly line pics that are in color, and not in Black & White. If anyone else has any color pics of the trucks being assembled I'd LOVE to see them.

This is a good discussion to have..........we really don't do a good job of documenting restoration information like this (not knocking this forum, it's just not set up to do such a thing) and searching the forum is so hit-or-miss that it's just not reliable. But I'm taking notes.............so when we all decide to collectively write an M37 restoration guide using all the knowledge on this forum (sales revenue of course would go to keeping this forum up and running) I can reach back. So keep the paint info coming........everyone's opinion has merit!

thanks,
bob

Oh...........below is a pic of the NOS door I got from Rick that I'm using as a color palate. I'm trying to match the color of the door.....so you can see the 2430 on the right is too brown....and the 24087 on the left is too green. We'll see what the 23070 looks like when it gets here. Bets anyone?

[Elwood]

Bob, did you get a chance to paint a section of 23070 on your test door? I'm curious to see how they all look together on one panel.

Apparently there are multiple shades of the 24087. The TM9 Ordnance website (now part of Midwest Military) makes reference to the "1956", "1959", and "1968 - 1974" shades of 24087 (on the Products page, in the description of the "1968 - 1974 Olive Drab 24087" catalyzed urethane http://tm9ordnance.com/products.htm). So maybe the original paint on that door is one of the other two shades of 24087?

As to the factory paint, my experience mirrors yours. I found OD, then black paint, then metal on my frame and axles. I'd assumed that the black was the original top coat, and that the OD was a field re-paint, but you might be right, in that the black was a Chrysler paint, put on to protect the assemblies. Since the frames, axles, etc. were manufactured at plants other than Warren Truck, where the G-741 final assembly was done, it would make sense that they'd be painted to protect them from rust in transit. Especially if they were shipped exposed, as was done with vehicle frames.

[w30bob]

Hi Elwood,

Sorry for the delay........I was very much expecting the 23070 to be THE color I was looking for.........but was disappointed again. You can see below that it's too "green" compared to the door. The camera is doing funny things in this pic, as the 23070 looks much "greener" in person than it looks in the pic. I got to thinking maybe the door was painted later than when the truck was built, so I rounded up a bunch of other NOS parts dated in the early 50's. They're all the same color......and they match the door. So I'm not understanding why this is so hard. I realize the military changed their minds on OD colors a million times, and there were many standards for their colors. But if ALL the vendors that supplied parts for the M37 used the same color........and ALL the trucks were painted this color........how come no one knows what that color is/was? This all strikes me as a bit odd.

In regards to the TM9 site, now owned by Midwest, there are some interesting colors described in the text.....but they don't sell many of those colors. There was a shade of OD that looked particularly interesting......but they don't make it anymore. But I will go back and re-read what they say about the 24087 variants.

I realize to most who read this that you think I'm over analyzing this and just being anal. You're right. But..........there is a "right" color....and then there are all the "other" OD colors. Finding the correct answer is the fun part for me, not actually painting the truck. Heck, even if I never get around to painting my truck......I want to know what the right answer is. It's going to bug me if I don't. And in this case there's tons of evidence available....which makes it more frustrating! I'm going to figure this out.........eventually.

regards,
bob

[Elwood]

Bob, thanks for posting that updated photo and info.

Are you obtaining your paint from only one source (Rapco)? I wonder if different manufacturers (both current and back in the day) have/had different shades for the same paint number?

[w30bob]

Hi Elwood,

Sorry for the late reply...........trying to enjoy the summer outdoors before it's all over and I start bitching about the cold. To answer your question.....no, I didn't get my paints from the same source, some from Rapco, some from TM9 (Midwest), etc......so there is a possibility that's why they're "off". But I'm still having a hard time understanding why the exact color these trucks were painted on the assembly line isn't known or reproduced. It's like not being able to find the correct color "black" to paint a Model T Ford. Every Model T was painted the same color black, and everyone knows they were black...........but no one knows the paint code for "that" black? Of course they do!

Obviously military vehicles made after WW2 get less respect.......but we should at least know what color they were.

Hey...........it's all good fun!

I'll post again when I get more color candidates. So stay tuned.

regards,
bob

[k8icu]

Bob,

I wonder about how your NOS door was stored over the years. Was it near a window where it got some sunlight? Was it close to a heat source? I know you nor I have the answer to those questions but that too may be affecting your paint color. Also you mention that we don't know the paint color. We do we know that post wwII till 1955 was 23070, we also know that 1955 till the mid 70s was 24087. One of the problems is that the government reformulated the paint codes a few times between wwII and the 70s. So 24087 in 1957 is not the same as in 1965. Also keep in mine that even though the government had a paint code and a specification for that color, the specs allowed for plus/minuses for the colors. In other words Sherwin Williams might make 24087 and it would be one side of the green spectrum and PPG would mix a can and it would be another shade. (This is why when you do any painting in batches you should mix all the paints together so you get consistency in color.) The fact is that vehicles and parts would vary in shade and color. Look at a color picture of a motor pool from the 60s and you'll see 3 or 4 different shades of color. Plus I've had first hand stories told to me by motor pool personnel that OD paint was hard to get in some places, but black and yellow could be had so to touch up their trucks they would mix the black and yellow together to get "OD". So you could get a can of black and a can of yellow and drive yourself even more crazy.

Bob we will be sad when they hall you away in that funny jacket with the arms in the back as you mumble "24087, no 23070, no 2430...."

Personally I would go with the middle sample on your truck which you have as 24087 and use yellow primer as was mentioned and then call it a day. But that's just me.

[k8icu]

Bob,

What did you decide to do on this? Which color did you pick or did you decide to have it color matched?