Dodge Bros Bolt Pics?

[carolinamv]

Anyone have any pictures of the heads on the Dodge Bros Bolts that's correct for the M37?

[52 M-42]

Hi Carolinamv,

I thought someone would post some pictures of the bolt heads, so I didn't bother uploading a couple pictures of my gear shift knob, which has the bolt head symbol on it. While it is not an actual bolt head, it is an exact copy of the logo. I hope it helps. Sorry for not responding sooner.





52 M-42

[carolinamv]

It does help. Thank you

I learned my entire truck was restored with correct Dodge bolts.

[52 M-42]

WOW ! That is amazing. There are a lot of bolts in these trucks.

[carolinamv]

Yeah , I guess im pretty dang lucky.

Im glad there's picky guys out there like me that would have wanted that done.

[MSeriesRebuild]

If someone wanted to pay us to clean up these bolts and build their truck; I'd do it; HOWEVER it would not be by choice and they would have to sign legal paper work releasing us from any possible resulting liability issues. The reason is simple, the original bolts were ungraded and non plated. They are extremely susceptible to stretching, stripping, and breaking due to years of fatigue. We typically build our trucks using plated grade 8 bolts and fastener hardware. Comes a time when you must make a choice; would you rather have a truck built the best it can be using premium materials; or one built from 60 year old fasteners that will rust in place within a very short time span, as well as having no proof at all of fastener reliability. I know there are those who think because bolts are original, they really have something to crow loud about, and it is great to have that in the proper prospective, (if it's a museum piece that is not driven on public roads). Common sense reply is this; if the truck will be used on public roads, it will require periodic maintenance and repair that will require bolt removal. Those rusty, un-plated fasteners quickly become an issue in that regard, and doing assembly using premium, graded, hardware that can be properly torqued to spec without issue makes your truck much more reliable in every way.

[CSCameron]

I agree Charles. At least half of the bolts I removed from my truck broke or needed to be cut off and most of the others were not fit for reuse.

[carolinamv]

Ill crow about mine. The Dodge bolts look new. I don't see any pitting and they all look like a brass color , almost like a grade 8 in color. I do have some grade 8 bolts after looking around at certain things, so I think the safety was in mind while restoring it.

[M60TC]

Charles-

Thanks for the info. I did not know that the original bolts were ungraded. I expected the bolts to be made to contract Mil specifications. I will now review my placement of these old bolts on the truck. I will restrict the use of the old bolts to only "show non-loading areas".

Don

[MSeriesRebuild]

Charles-

Thanks for the info. I did not know that the original bolts were ungraded. I expected the bolts to be made to contract Mil specifications. I will now review my placement of these old bolts on the truck. I will restrict the use of the old bolts to only "show non-loading areas".

Don

I'm not sure how stringent mil specs were in the early 50's; and technology has so improved today. Even if the original bolts met some type of specs prevalent in those days, how would that compare with bolts of today? I have seen original bolts cleaned and plated that looked really great; we have cleaned some; BUT that doesn't change 1 thing about the quality that was in them as new originals (unknown) or the possible fatigue factor after 60 years, also unknown; although it is a fact that metal parts do become fatigued to the point of not being good to reuse over time. Face reality, with this, we are all in the realm of the unknown. I do know the bolts were ungraded, so we have no clue whether that means they could compare to today's grade 2, grade 5, or not. Even to the critical things like ring gear mounting bolts were not graded, which I have seen many cracked, loose, broken, and stripped. I imagine the folks that designed and built M37's would be amazed beyond words to know how many actually survive today. They didn't know if they would survive an hour or a week before being blown to bits, just were not designed to be in service 64 years later. This is why it is such an extensive feat to make a really safe, reliable vehicle out of them today. Being involved with much vehicle service when I was in the military; I saw first hand the lack of quality in parts, tooling which we had to work with, oils and lubricants, quality workmanship in performing repairs was non existent, and basically that terrible attitude across the board with mechanics was because of a very poor parts supply chain; and the knowledge we had was very clear; the powers that be who had authority so that they could have made a difference didn't give a crap. They loved folks like me who had grown up being shade tree mechanics because we could make something run, at least for a while with little resources; however everyone knows those kinds of repairs are very temporary as a general rule; thus I didn't take much pride in their praise. What was a bigger concern to me was to send something out knowing full well it wasn't repaired properly, and the potential that the driver might have problems putting them and their crew in a bad or possibly deadly situation. I don't know how all that is in today's military; but my guess would be it likely hasn't changed much, especially with all the recent military cut backs that are happening. We have done service work to a number of later model trucks recently, (900 series 5-tons and M35A3C), all of these dating back as far as mid 80's dates of manufacture; fasteners used in these trucks are all grade 8 installed with cone type self-locking nuts. A much different scenario than what was used in M37 and other early M Series trucks.

[rickv100]

So according to your logic Charles every antique vehicle build prior to bolt grading standards should be removed from the road. Don't want those unsafe vehicles around our children!!

Rick

[MSeriesRebuild]

So according to your logic Charles every antique vehicle build prior to bolt grading standards should be removed from the road. Don't want those unsafe vehicles around our children!!

Rick

That is your opinion I guess; certainly it isn't mine, cause I never said it.

My logic is extremely simple to understand if you make an effort. "I" am liable as owner of M Series Rebuild LLC for the parts and workmanship quality that goes out the doors of our facility. Our liability insurance provider expects us to turn out safe, and reliable vehicles; to date we have never had to file a claim. The provider would require us to get a disclaimer form signed by the person requesting that we use possibly substandard fasteners (in this discussion) to assemble a vehicle at customer request. As I said, I have no problem cleaning and reusing original bolts at customer request as long as the customer is willing to sign that form releasing us from liability related to any issue that could arise as a result. Plain and simple; it keeps us from being taken to court by someone who insisted original fasteners be used (for whatever reason) and then had some issue to arise later that could be blamed on a fastener failure. The part you apparently don't realize is we live in a world where all insurance providers and many individuals think the only way to settle things is to drag someone to court. Even if you win the case, there is costly attorney fees, lost time from work, etc., etc. I try to take every precaution to eliminate such from happening.

This brings an incident to mind that happened locally a few years back. I happened to know this fellow well. He was a self employed heavy equipment mechanic; so he would have been very familiar with situations we have discussed in this thread. He purchased a supposedly restored Harley-Davidson motor cycle. Was out enjoying a cruise one afternoon when something went horribly wrong, caused him to lose control, go off the road and hit a utility pole. He was killed instantly. Investigation showed a rusted and fatigued bolt holding the kickstand assembly to the frame broke; the stand fell downward, causing him to lose control of the bike. Did the person who did the resto pay attention to this?? Was the bolt reused in the restoration for the sake of being original?? Did he request that the original bolts be reused?? I wonder.

[rickv100]

Charles,

Unless you have certified bolts how can you be sure they are truly grade 8? First question any lawyer will ask you.

What about the non collapsing steering column, lack of seatbelts, lock ring rims, single circuit brake system in out trucks? Do you warn owners about those as well? Any lawyer worth his title is going to find you at fault.

Rick

[MSeriesRebuild]

Charles,

Unless you have certified bolts how can you be sure they are truly grade 8? First question any lawyer will ask you.

What about the non collapsing steering column, lack of seatbelts, lock ring rims, single circuit brake system in out trucks? Do you warn owners about those as well? Any lawyer worth his title is going to find you at fault.

Rick

Certifiable bolts isn't the question; as long as we use new fasteners that are marked as graded, we can properly torque them to spec, we are covered. Grade 8 hardware is not a requirement; it is simply our choice to go with grade 8; I just feel better about using them. Original steering column isn't the same issue as something breaking and causing a problem; unless something about it broke or failed due to our negligence. If an owner is injured in an accident by the steering column; that is the owner of the truck, not someone else; he or she makes their own decision to drive the truck or not; and yes I have many discussions with owners making recommendations in the areas of reliability and safety; however it is their right to choose just like with the bolts. All our trucks get power steering which utilizes 2 or more u-joints in the shaft; in the event of a major collision; the shaft would collapse to some degree because of the flex at the u-joints. We can install collapsible steering assemblies too if a customer wants it. We haven't sent a truck out in many years without seat belts, most get lap and shoulder belts. The original rims with a lock ring are just fine; better than any of the aftermarket rims I've seen; as long as all components are in good shape. The same style rims were the norm on heavy trucks for many years; worked with trucks and heavy equipment all my working years, never saw any problems except with damaged rims, negligent or untrained installers. We inspect very carefully in that area to be sure. We haven't sent a truck out with single circuit brakes in many years either; all get a dual circuit system, most get 4-wheel disc brakes, and are power boosted as well.

Just to clarify things, I'm not here to argue these points. I'm simply telling you how we do it. You can put yours together any way you like using whatever you like. As for the trucks that roll out from here; you'll be hard pressed to find a M37 or Power Wagon anywhere that has had more attention paid to detail in these and all other areas, of both reliability and appearance, (if appearance matters).

[carolinamv]

He's just saying what he thinks and his opinion and what his business does. Obliviously if all the trucks that leave have power steering then Dodge bolts wouldn't be a concern to the customer like some purest that want a restored Military truck . Nothing wrong with that if that's what you like.

Id like my trucks like my antique guns to be as true and original as possible, id opt like some others for original NOS Dodge bolts on most of my restoration. That's just how I am.

Everyone has their own way of restoring vehicles , that's part of the fun of the hobby to see what everyone has done to their trucks. From NOS Frame off Military restorations to Custom 4x4 M37's.