Pole Barn Proposal, Comments Please

[Carter]

I am getting prices in prep to put a garage on my land in Peach Bottom Pa. and would like your input, I want a 30X40 insulated steel with three 12" doors, one man door and six windows and conc floor. Have received several quotes but the best is this one but it does not include elec service which I would have to install.
Comments please about pole buildings in general, this building or materials listed, what do you think?

GRABER SUPPLY LLC
491 GAP NEWPORT PIKE
ATGLEN, PA 19310

Page 1:
Proposal to furnish all materials as listed below for building size as follows:
( Note: Quality Material & Labor included. )
Width= 30 Length= 40 Eave Height= 14
One Row 2x6 Treated Skirt Board around bottom perimeter of building.
Concrete for base of poles.
Treated Pole Size= 6x6 3 ply 2x6 glu-lams Pole Spacing Side= 8' O.C. End= 8'- 10' O.C.
Clear Span Trusses, loading= 30-5-5 90 m.p.h. wind speed Spacing= 4' O.C. Slope (Pitch)= 4/12
Boxed in overhang, with painted, 29 guage Steel fascia and vented soffit - Eave Sides=12" Gable ends=none
Horizontal 2x4 Roof Purlins & Wall Girts are spaced at 24" on center
Painted 29 GA. Galvalume Roof and Sides with Screw Fasteners. (Note: Forty-year limited warranty.)
(Note: Additional cost for Dark Red, Crimson Red, Copper, Gallery Blue & Hartford Green)
Doors (1) 3068 9 lite entry door
Doors (3) 12x12 insulated overhead doors
Windows (6) 36x48 vinyl single hung ADD: $35/window for grids
Insulation: R19 walls and R30 ceiling, ceiling liner panel, walls plywood to 6' then liner 8'
4" stone and 4" 3500 psi fibermesh reinforced concrete
Total price including delivery and State Sales Tax.
See next page for terms and conditions.

Page 2
Terms: 25% down, balance minus $1500 upon first delivery of materials,
balance of $1500 upon completion of building.
Drop site must be accessible. Owner/General Contractor is responsible for any towing/pullout fees and lost time.
Graber Supply is not liable for damage done to driveway, yard or field by delivery trucks, construction trucks or equipment.
Graber Supply is not liable for damages to any electrical or cable lines or underground pipes.
OWNER/GENERAL CONTRACTOR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING:
-All necessary excavation to prepare a level, compacted, unpaved, accessible site extending at least
five feet beyond building dimensions.
(Site may be graveled up to 4 inches deep. Excessive gravel depth will cause delays and additional labor costs.)
***** LEVEL SITE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. SEE NOTE BELOW. *****
-Pumping any water that may accrue in post holes.
-Obtaining all necessary permits and licenses, if needed.
-Removal of trash.
-Builder's Risk, Fire, and Storm insurance for the full amount of any materials delivered or installed.
-All extra costs that accrue from digging through any obstructions (rocks, stumps, etc).
-Costs that accrue as a result of site conditions or lack of access with standard equipment (skid loader, etc.).
-Costs that accrue from delays in timely inspections by local officials.
-Costs that accrue from extra materials required by local code or added for any other reason.
******* IMPORTANT NOTE: IF BUILDING CREW CANNOT PROCEED WITH CONSTRUCTION
BECAUSE OF LACK OF SITE ACCESS, UNWORKABLE SITE CONDITION(S), OR IMPROPER OR
INCOMPLETE SITE PREPARATION, COST OF LOST TIME (MINIMUM OF $500.00) WILL BE
ADDED TO THE TOTAL PRICE. *********
*************************************************************************************************
IMPORTANT NOTE: GRABER SUPPLY IS A SUBCONTRACTOR TO OWNER. OWNER IS THE
GENERAL CONTRACTOR FOR THIS BUILDING.
*************************************************************************************************
NO EXCAVATION, PLUMBING, OR ELECTRICAL WORK INCLUDED.
COST OF ENGINEERED SEALED DRAWING, IF NEEDED, NOT INCLUDED.
NOTE: BUYER HAS A 3-DAY RIGHT-OF-CANCELLATION AFTER SIGNING THIS CONTRACT.
NOTE: PRICE SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE.
*** New Jersey Home Improvement License #VH 02127200.
*** PA Home Improvement License #PA038559

Page 3
Proposal Description
Proposal To:
Carter Davidson
York, PA 17315
55650
Proposal ID Date
Page
9/4/2012
PROPOSAL
Description: 30x40x14
Sales Pending
Phone: (610) 593-3500
Fax: (610) 593-2510
ATGLEN, PA 19310
491 GAP NEWPORT PIKE
GRABER SUPPLY LLC
3 of 3
Subtotal 35,200.00
Tax 0.00
Total 35,200.00

[powerwagontim]

Hi Carter,
A proposal this detailed tells me they are not a fly by night operation. Sounds like they want to get in and get it done, no screwing around. Be sure they (or any contractor) provide you a certificate of insurance. Pay attention to the expiration date on it. It should show that they have workers comp for the employees. Make sure that their employees are really employees, not subs. If they do not carry workers comp, and someone gets hurt, YOU can be held liable. You dont want t be in that position. If they bring in any other trades, you will also need to get certificates from them. I dont know the prices in your area, but the 35k seems to be a good price.
Hope this helps,
Tim

[Brett]

Carter

I don't really have any experience with pole barns, so i can't comment on that. Down in my neck of the woods, buildings like this would be all steel.

Having spent my entire career in the construction industry, the second page throws up some very serious red flags. I will admit that common practices vary in different parts of the country, but I don't like what I read. I believe in a pole building the first step is setting all the poles. This would require materials to be delivered to the site. At that time your builder is asking to be paid 96% of the total price. Your money is your best insurance that the builder will do what he is contractually obligated to do. You should never pay the builder for more than what is complete. All you have to hold over his head is $1500. If you're not happy with what he's doing, and try to make him fix it, there's nothing to keep him from throwing up his hands and walking off. Leaving you to pay someone else to clean up his mess.

I had a garage built several years ago at a cost of roughly $20K. The contractor I went with asked for $250 upfront to hold a place on his schedule. After the sitework was done and the slab and foundation was finished he got a check for $4750. When all materials were delivered he got another check for $5k. He got his final check for $10k when every thing was complete, all inspections were passed, and I was happy.

Other flags are things like not being a liscensed general contractor (BTW this is most likely why he's not offering electrical), not having insurance, and not pulling his own permits. Heck,he won't haul off his own trash, and he wants to charge you extra for rainwater collecting in his post holes.

If everything goes right you may be ok. But, if things go wrong, as they sometimes do, you won't have much on your side.

Brett

[Tuko]

if you build it they will come

[m15256]

I am in the construction business though I haven't built a pole barn in many many years. First impression is the price seems pretty good but that is compared to where I am which is probably one of the most expensive in the country.

My next impression follows along with the line of thought that Brett so clearly wrote. If the outfit is reputable and wants your business you should be able to negotiate a contract on more normal terms. They get paid (promptly) in agreed upon stages as they stock the site and achieve certain stages. That keeps everybody honest.

I assume that you've already dealt with the local permitting process and know whether or not you need the stamped engineered set.

It is not unusual here for a home owner to pull his own permit and have the construction done by someone (in your case Graber) who is the sub. However in that case you are taking the ultimate responsibility that the structure is completed in compliance with local/State building codes.

I think you're better off if they pull the permit and the responsibility then rides on their license.

Last point. Where I come from a "Home Improvement License" doesn't actually allow you to build a structure of that size (for someone else). You have to have a real "Construction Supervisors License"

Good luck and let us know how it works out. Maybe that contract is normal where you are.

Rick

[Carter]

Thanks guys, that is the kind of information I am looking for, I will be going back to talk to Graber today and discuss the items you have brought up, which by the way are things I never thought about. Great stuff guys, thanks for the talking points. Got a quote from Conestoga in yesterdays mail to look over today and compare it with Graber's
Anyone else see any red flags?

[m15256]

I suppose a way to go would be to ask for 8 names of owners that Graber has done similar work for. Contact 4 of them. You only build a good reputation by being honest.

[Carter]

I suppose a way to go would be to ask for 8 names of owners that Graber has done similar work for. Contact 4 of them. You only build a good reputation by being honest.

Good idea, I'll email them and ask, if they will not give me any I'll know to not deal with them.

[powerwagontim]

Hi Carter,
Keep in mind the referrals they give are going to be ones that will say good things about them. You almost need to listen for what the folks are not saying. Ask the people they give you if they know of others they have worked for, you might get a better idea from them the real picture of what thee company is like to deal with.
Tim

[Carter]

Tim, the home builder we have contracted to build our new house was who recommended Graber and showed us one of his buildings they put up several years ago for him.

[powerwagontim]

Hi Carter,
That is a good referral, if your contractor had not had good dealings with them he wouldnt have suggested them to you.
Tim

[Tanner]

Hi Carter,
That is a good referral, if your contractor had not had good dealings with them he wouldnt have suggested them to you.
Tim

...unless they are related, then all bets are off.

'Tanner'

[powerwagontim]

True enough!
Tim