Engine rebuild shops?

[k8icu]

Most of our customers stress the fact that they don't want to have some maintenance issue going on everytime they push on the starter pedal. They want things done right, so when they want to drive; the truck is ready for reliable service.

Let start by saying I'm not picking on what Charles said here just making a IMHO type point. That point is that if someone wants a vehicle that is turn key ready to roll when ever they go out to it then they shouldn't want any antique vehicle espically an old MV. By their design MVs were meant to have maintence done to them all the time. Some of that maintence was designed to keep the truck in top running condition, true, but the fact that you have to do this maintence means that the truck needs constant maintence. That means lube points need to be lubed on a regular cycle basis. Oil needs to be changed on a regular basis. Preventive Maintence Check and Service (PMCS) needs to be done on the truck. If you want to just get in and go then you need to buy a new Chevy,Ford, Dodge, Toyota etc truck and have it when needed. IMHO if you own a Military Vehicle you had better plan on spending more time under it than driving it. Doesn't matter if you have a truck that has been gone over and every nut and bolt and part has been replaced or cleaned and checked etc and is as good as the day it left the factory, or you have a truck that runs good and you just need to keep the maintence up on it. The point is you need to turn a few wrenches and get your hands dirty if you own one of these things!

[Master Yota]

No I never imagined it would cost that much, I was working all the time and didn't have the time to mess with it myself.
My point was, just by throwing money at something does not guarantee a quality job.

Tanner,

He did actually spend that much money, as referenced from his post on page one...

Most of this discussion is still somewhat relevant to Scotts original question. The ultimate point we can conclude is that "buyer beware" works in both directions. One end of the spectrum will short you on quality, and the other end will short you on cash. The best value, regardless of who does the work or the parts used, will be somewhere in the middle. And value is based soley by the person shelling out the coins...

[MSeriesRebuild]

Most of our customers stress the fact that they don't want to have some maintenance issue going on everytime they push on the starter pedal. They want things done right, so when they want to drive; the truck is ready for reliable service.

Let start by saying I'm not picking on what Charles said here just making a IMHO type point. That point is that if someone wants a vehicle that is turn key ready to roll when ever they go out to it then they shouldn't want any antique vehicle espically an old MV. By their design MVs were meant to have maintence done to them all the time. Some of that maintence was designed to keep the truck in top running condition, true, but the fact that you have to do this maintence means that the truck needs constant maintence. That means lube points need to be lubed on a regular cycle basis. Oil needs to be changed on a regular basis. Preventive Maintence Check and Service (PMCS) needs to be done on the truck. If you want to just get in and go then you need to buy a new Chevy,Ford, Dodge, Toyota etc truck and have it when needed. IMHO if you own a Military Vehicle you had better plan on spending more time under it than driving it. Doesn't matter if you have a truck that has been gone over and every nut and bolt and part has been replaced or cleaned and checked etc and is as good as the day it left the factory, or you have a truck that runs good and you just need to keep the maintence up on it. The point is you need to turn a few wrenches and get your hands dirty if you own one of these things!

IMHO, this doesn't even make sense. I've never seen any vehicle on the planet that doesn't require typical routine service in order to remain in top condition. Are you trying to tell us new Ford's Chevy's, Dodge, or Toyota's don't require the routine service just as any other vehicle? I guess you have missed the point of a well built truck entirely; I stress the importance of routine maintenance to every vehicle owner we work for. I'd do the same if we were building Ford F-350's; there is no difference. My point is simply this; if a M37 is built to the high standards we offer, it will require no more maintenance than any other vehicle out there. My M37 is used frequently, mainly as a business use vehicle these days; it gets serviced according to the same schedule that our other vehicles do. We don't have to check everything, or work on it before each use; it is a very reliable truck to simply get in and go. I don't even remember when a part was last replaced on it, it's been years. It was mechanically rebuilt by us back in 1990; and it doesn't mark its territory where ever we park it. It had a Cummins 4BTA and a 5-speed installed in 1999. It's always ready to roll at a moments notice when we need it, local running or on the interstate.

Obviously, we aren't discussing military vehicles of the same catagory at all.

[Master Yota]

Not to be picky here Charles, but there is a big difference between a Cummins and a 230 or 251 flat head in terms of required maintenance. The mechanical longevity of a modern engine is 5 to 10 times what the original power plant was/is, and the lack of regular maintenance needed reflects that. Thats precisely the point of doing an engine swap in the first place. I belive the point that K8icu was trying to make is that your post gives the impression that a reman crate engine from your shop will require less maintenance overall, simply because you rebuilt it over anyone else doing the job. I find it difficult to belive that the rebuilt 230 in your own M37 required no other maintenance other than simply a lube, oil, and filter change (as a modern engine needs) to remain in top performing condition until it was swapped out for the cummins almost 10 years later.

Its unrealistic to make a comparison about routine maintenance an a newer Ford, Chevy, Dodge, or Toyota in the same breath as an M37 - top level rebuild or not. The simple fact is that modern engines, and drivelines in general are designed to a higher tolerance than any powertrain produced in any M-series vehicle 50 years ago. My '05 GMC dosen't even need the spark plugs or a tune-up until it hits 100,000 miles. I seriously doubt the same could be said for a top shelf rebuild on a 230.

[MSeriesRebuild]

This has gotten rediculous now; I'm beginning to agree with DJ about where the thread has gone; starting to bore me.

My truck was used several years as a service truck back in the construction days with the original engine. Even then it got the same level of service/maintenance every thing else did. I didn't have issues with it then, it was ready as needed; that was daily except Sunday. The real reason it has a Cummins now was the fact that it got the first repower engine we did using a Cummins, the prototype; and sure it's better. I worked out the installation issues with my own truck before offering the Cummins option to others.

I still contend that if things are done the best they can be when rebuilding various components in a stock truck, all the maintenance that some contend to be necessary on a continuous schedule isn't a necessity; but simply something they want to do. Some even own the trucks because they like tinkering with things mechanical; that is a bigger reason for ownership for them than enjoying the drive. Nothing wrong with that, to each his own; but you can enjoy a dependable military truck without it having to be a constant burden of maintenance issues. For some it's an outlet or stress reliever to do the continuous maintenance thing; again up to the individual as they choose. It's also a fact that all don't choose to be wearing coveralls and carrying a toolbox every time they approach their truck; so don't knock these folks for doing it like they want too either.

[ZGjethro]

The generator issue is a special concern simply because of the oil reservoir on the early models that furnishes lubrication for the front bearing. Most of the generators on M37 trucks are the early style. I can't tell you the last time I went into one of these units that had a drop of oil in the reservoir. No oil, the bearing will eventually give up obviously. Most people have no idea the gen even has an oil reservoir, thus they don't know to monitor the oil level, etc. Even if they do know it; the failure in the vast majority comes from the oil seal failing that is behind the front bearing, letting the oil escape back into the generator housing into the field coils and the armature and back to the commutator and brushes. Of course this leak is internal and is not visible from outside. Most of the time the gen fails due to oil getting where it doesn't belong or the bearings lack of lube. This issue is so common to these units, it's rediculous not to pull it down and check it out. The front bearing is also easily replaced with a sealed bearing, eliminating the need for oiling, and eliminating this issue completely. We upgrade to the late style set up. The later units are built this way without the reservoir. This is why we suggest going through such components, but it is totally up to the customer whether or not we do.

I am glad I read this post. I am sure my generator is one of the empty ones since I just learned of the oil reservoir. What oil is recommended? I will do some research on this.

[MSeriesRebuild]

The generator issue is a special concern simply because of the oil reservoir on the early models that furnishes lubrication for the front bearing. Most of the generators on M37 trucks are the early style. I can't tell you the last time I went into one of these units that had a drop of oil in the reservoir. No oil, the bearing will eventually give up obviously. Most people have no idea the gen even has an oil reservoir, thus they don't know to monitor the oil level, etc. Even if they do know it; the failure in the vast majority comes from the oil seal failing that is behind the front bearing, letting the oil escape back into the generator housing into the field coils and the armature and back to the commutator and brushes. Of course this leak is internal and is not visible from outside. Most of the time the gen fails due to oil getting where it doesn't belong or the bearings lack of lube. This issue is so common to these units, it's rediculous not to pull it down and check it out. The front bearing is also easily replaced with a sealed bearing, eliminating the need for oiling, and eliminating this issue completely. We upgrade to the late style set up. The later units are built this way without the reservoir. This is why we suggest going through such components, but it is totally up to the customer whether or not we do.

I am glad I read this post. I am sure my generator is one of the empty ones since I just learned of the oil reservoir. What oil is recommended? I will do some research on this.

It gets the same oil as in the crankcase; but proceed with caution before you add oil if its low or empty. The check/level plug is on the front cover beneath the shaft and belt pulley. The issue is this, unless you know the seal behind the bearing is capable of holding oil; you may be just filling the reservoir only to have oil run directly into the rear of the unit. If this is the case, it won't be long until it isn't charging any longer. The best thing you can do is pull it apart, remove the gears and oil slinger assembly completely and change the front bearing over to a modern day sealed type bearing. On lunch break now, can give you that bearing # when back at the shop if you desire; it is a metric bearing, that I recall for certain.

[k8icu]

Ya know Charles I was trying to be nice.... A modern truck say built within the last 15 years does not need the same amount of maintence as older MVs. Go look at a modern truck and tell me how many lube points do you need to hit? Zero that's rignt everything is "lube for life." Most trucks built in the last 5 years don't need an oil change until 6 thousand miles, some now are being sold with even longer intervals for an oil change. Modern vehicles need less maintence than older historic vehicles.

Back to the OP. Look around your area. Talk to others in the hobby in your part of the world and see who they recommend. You should be able to find one in your area that will do a great job and you wont have to crate you motor up and ship it accross the country.

[MSeriesRebuild]

Ya know Charles I was trying to be nice.... A modern truck say built within the last 15 years does not need the same amount of maintence as older MVs. Go look at a modern truck and tell me how many lube points do you need to hit? Zero that's rignt everything is "lube for life." Most trucks built in the last 5 years don't need an oil change until 6 thousand miles, some now are being sold with even longer intervals for an oil change. Modern vehicles need less maintence than older historic vehicles.

Back to the OP. Look around your area. Talk to others in the hobby in your part of the world and see who they recommend. You should be able to find one in your area that will do a great job and you wont have to crate you motor up and ship it accross the country.

Nobody has said you were being anything other than nice. I have no problem with your post. It's just that you keep trying to make claims when you aren't even in the ball park of what can be done to change and upgrade a 230 and the rest of the vehicle too for that matter to comply with current day vehicle maintenace intervals. The premium quality oils of today, greases, etc that make those longer intervals possible. How much knowledge do you actually have of why those intervals are extended more than they once were. What do you think lubed for life components are lubed with? It ain't cheap junk from Wal-Mart; at least in the quality parts. Most of our builds have improved filtration for the engine, we use only the best engine oils when they leave here and we recommend owners continue to use the better products and the products they should run after break-in. Premium grease will stay where you put it instead of being thrown out of a bearing or being squeezed out of chassis points. Yes even with non-sealed lube points, the difference is huge. The need for frequent re-lubrication is no longer neccessary if you use the right grease and the components are built the best they can be. We install u-joints with modern material seals for instance. If premium greases such as Synergen, Hydrotex, or Royal Purple are used, it doesn't sling out and will run for thousands of miles without the need for additional grease. In fact all additional lubrication does is force clean grease past the seals; this damages seals drastically shortening the joint life and is in large part a waste of grease. Realizing these issues is not only a great labor savings in time spent doing maintenance, but even though these premium quality products cost more initially; $$ savings is also significant because so much less product is needed to do the job, because it stays and keeps working where you put it.

Now I've already figured out that you feel this isn't possible, so no need in me beating my head against the wall further trying to help you understand, so I'll close it out. It seems to me like you have the mindset that newer engines need less attention simply because they are newer engines. Actually the oils that manufacturer's recommend as meeting their specs in the newer engines is the life blood and a big reason for the extended interval recommendations. Try running the oils that the 60 year old military lube order calls for in that modern engine and see how far you go without problems coming your way. Vastly improved oils exist now days. If you get into the fine print of your modern vehicle owners manual; I think you will learn that the 6,000 miles plus oil change intervals are recommended for vehicles that get lots of miles fairly quickly such as with regular interstate travel. Read a little further and you will find the much lower mileage recommendations for local and short trip driving. Just like with premium grease, premium oils can also be used and will offer superior protection over much extended oil change intervals. You don't have to take my word, just do your own research by checking out the higher end products available today.

[SOTVEN]

I AM NOT A MECHANIC. I HAVE HAD MY FAIR SHARE OF TINKERING WITH VEHICLES HOWEVER. CURRENTLY I WORK FOR A LIVERY COMPANY THAT HAS A FLEET OF 23 FORD E250 AND E350 VANS, 2008 AND NEWER. RELIABILITY? OMG!!! HAD THOSE VEHICLES BEEN ISSUED TO THE MILITARY, THEY WOULD BE TRASHED AFTER 6 MONTHS!!! WE HAD A VAN WITH A CHECK ENGINE LIGHT ON, THAT NEITHER THE OFFICIAL DEALERSHIP KNEW WHY IT WAS ON. "THE COMPUTER CAN NOT DIAGNOSE IT" WAS THE OFFICIAL ANSWER. AS FOR THE INCREASED INTERVAL FOR OIL CHANGES, INDEED, WE CHANGE OIL AT 7500 MILES PER MANUAL FOR CITY/CONSTANT DRIVING. BUT I THINK THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE LUBRICANTS MOSTLY, AND TRUST ME AT THE PRICE THEY GO PER DRUM, THEY 'D BETTER PERFORM!!!! ALSO REGARDING TO THE LACK OF GREASE ZERKS, IT COSTITUTES TO FASTER REPLACEMENT OF THE PARTS THAN IF THEY WERE GREASABLE, AS SEEN COMPARED TO SOME OF OUR OLDER VANS THAT STILL HAVE GREASABLE BALL JOINTS. BACK IN GREECE, FOR DECADES TAXI CABS WERE SOLELY MERCEDES BENZ CARS WITH DIESEL ENGINES MODELS /8, 123 AND 124. ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE NEWS ABOUT A TAXI DRIVER THAT HAD A 123 WITH 2.000.000 (2 MILLION) KM ON THE ORIGINAL MOTOR!!! MB TOOK THAT CAR FOR THEIR MUSEUM IN STUTGARD AND REWARDED HIM WITH A NEW MB AND A SUM OF MONEY. LAW IN GREECE SAYS THAT NO TAXI CAB CAN BE OLDER THAN 20 YEARS. SINCE THEY ALL HAD TO BE SWITCHED AT SOME POINT THEY ALL GOT NEW MB IN THE BEGINING, (1998 AND NEWER) TO REPLACE THE OLD. HOW MANY MB YOU THINK ARE TAXI CABS THESE DAYS? LESS THAN 5%. ALL HORRIBLE RECORDS IN RELIABILITY COMPARED TO THE OLD STUFF. THE GREEK ARMY REPLACED THE M37 WITH AN MB TRUCK, DIESEL WHICH HAS COST US MILLIONS IN TAX PAYERS' MONEY AND THE RELIABILITY RECORDS ARE HORIFFIC. AND ENOUGH ABOUT HOME. I DRIVE A 1998 RAM HERE IN THE STATES, BOUGHT USED 2 YEARS AGO, AND THANK GOD I HAD GOOD LUCK WITH IT SO FAR. WOULD IT EVER OUTLIVE MY M37? IN 50 YEARS FROM NOW THERE WILL NOT BE A PICTURE OF THIS RAM, NEVER MIND THE TRUCK. BOTOM LINE, THERE IS ENOUGH TECHNOLOGY THESE DAYS TO MAKE RELIABLE AND GOOD VEHICLES. BUT COMPANIES DO NOT CARE TO DO SO, BECAUSE THEN WHO ARE THEY GOING TO "MILK" EVERY TIME SOMETHING BRAKES DOWN? IS THE M37 INDISTRUCTIBLE? OF COURSE NOT. HOWEVER, IT WAS ENGINEERED WITH THE BEST INTENTIONS TO WIN WARS. SO IF SOMEONE CAN "WED" THE BEST ASPECTS OF THE M37 WITH TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY, THEN WE TALKING!!! IF I HAD TO HAVE ONLY ONE VEHICLE FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE, IT WOULD BE AN M37. NOT BECAUSE IT IS MORE RELIABLE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, BUT WHAT BRAKES IN IT I HAVE MANAGED TO FIX SO FAR MUCH EASIER AND WITH LESS EXPENSE THAN ANYTHING ELSE I EVER HAD MY HANDS ON. JUST MY TWO CENTS

[MSeriesRebuild]

I AM NOT A MECHANIC. I HAVE HAD MY FAIR SHARE OF TINKERING WITH VEHICLES HOWEVER. CURRENTLY I WORK FOR A LIVERY COMPANY THAT HAS A FLEET OF 23 FORD E250 AND E350 VANS, 2008 AND NEWER. RELIABILITY? OMG!!! HAD THOSE VEHICLES BEEN ISSUED TO THE MILITARY, THEY WOULD BE TRASHED AFTER 6 MONTHS!!! WE HAD A VAN WITH A CHECK ENGINE LIGHT ON, THAT NEITHER THE OFFICIAL DEALERSHIP KNEW WHY IT WAS ON. "THE COMPUTER CAN NOT DIAGNOSE IT" WAS THE OFFICIAL ANSWER. AS FOR THE INCREASED INTERVAL FOR OIL CHANGES, INDEED, WE CHANGE OIL AT 7500 MILES PER MANUAL FOR CITY/CONSTANT DRIVING. BUT I THINK THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE LUBRICANTS MOSTLY, AND TRUST ME AT THE PRICE THEY GO PER DRUM, THEY 'D BETTER PERFORM!!!! ALSO REGARDING TO THE LACK OF GREASE ZERKS, IT COSTITUTES TO FASTER REPLACEMENT OF THE PARTS THAN IF THEY WERE GREASABLE, AS SEEN COMPARED TO SOME OF OUR OLDER VANS THAT STILL HAVE GREASABLE BALL JOINTS. BACK IN GREECE, FOR DECADES TAXI CABS WERE SOLELY MERCEDES BENZ CARS WITH DIESEL ENGINES MODELS /8, 123 AND 124. ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE NEWS ABOUT A TAXI DRIVER THAT HAD A 123 WITH 2.000.000 (2 MILLION) KM ON THE ORIGINAL MOTOR!!! MB TOOK THAT CAR FOR THEIR MUSEUM IN STUTGARD AND REWARDED HIM WITH A NEW MB AND A SUM OF MONEY. LAW IN GREECE SAYS THAT NO TAXI CAB CAN BE OLDER THAN 20 YEARS. SINCE THEY ALL HAD TO BE SWITCHED AT SOME POINT THEY ALL GOT NEW MB IN THE BEGINING, (1998 AND NEWER) TO REPLACE THE OLD. HOW MANY MB YOU THINK ARE TAXI CABS THESE DAYS? LESS THAN 5%. ALL HORRIBLE RECORDS IN RELIABILITY COMPARED TO THE OLD STUFF. THE GREEK ARMY REPLACED THE M37 WITH AN MB TRUCK, DIESEL WHICH HAS COST US MILLIONS IN TAX PAYERS' MONEY AND THE RELIABILITY RECORDS ARE HORIFFIC. AND ENOUGH ABOUT HOME. I DRIVE A 1998 RAM HERE IN THE STATES, BOUGHT USED 2 YEARS AGO, AND THANK GOD I HAD GOOD LUCK WITH IT SO FAR. WOULD IT EVER OUTLIVE MY M37? IN 50 YEARS FROM NOW THERE WILL NOT BE A PICTURE OF THIS RAM, NEVER MIND THE TRUCK. BOTOM LINE, THERE IS ENOUGH TECHNOLOGY THESE DAYS TO MAKE RELIABLE AND GOOD VEHICLES. BUT COMPANIES DO NOT CARE TO DO SO, BECAUSE THEN WHO ARE THEY GOING TO "MILK" EVERY TIME SOMETHING BRAKES DOWN? IS THE M37 INDISTRUCTIBLE? OF COURSE NOT. HOWEVER, IT WAS ENGINEERED WITH THE BEST INTENTIONS TO WIN WARS. SO IF SOMEONE CAN "WED" THE BEST ASPECTS OF THE M37 WITH TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY, THEN WE TALKING!!! IF I HAD TO HAVE ONLY ONE VEHICLE FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE, IT WOULD BE AN M37. NOT BECAUSE IT IS MORE RELIABLE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, BUT WHAT BRAKES IN IT I HAVE MANAGED TO FIX SO FAR MUCH EASIER AND WITH LESS EXPENSE THAN ANYTHING ELSE I EVER HAD MY HANDS ON. JUST MY TWO CENTS

You are getting the picture and figuring all this out. I commend you for posting this info.

[k8icu]

I don't know I'm just a simple leatherworker.... I'll just refer to Rule #1 of MV ownership that was taught to me by an old friend who has passed on in this world who spent many years turning a wrench or two on these old girls..... You will spend more time under it than you will driving it.... But, isn't that half the fun for owning the old girl in the first place?

http://www.leathernaturally.com

[MSeriesRebuild]

I don't know I'm just a simple leatherworker.... I'll just refer to Rule #1 of MV ownership that was taught to me by an old friend who has passed on in this world who spent many years turning a wrench or two on these old girls..... You will spend more time under it than you will driving it.... But, isn't that half the fun for owning the old girl in the first place?

http://www.leathernaturally.com

Not knowing is one thing, not necessarily a bad thing. What is sad I think is that you aren't willing to realize and learn of a better way. If you would just rather take bad advice from another who apparently never learned that better ways do exist; that is up to you.

I don't meet many people who feel spending time under the truck is more fun; most people would rather do a repair/rebuild job right once and be done with it; so they can enjoy the ride without further issue. Most owners didn't purchase their truck because they needed 1 more thing to work on constantly. I always felt life in general provided plenty of that. I guess you are a rare bird in more ways than 1. Have fun with your maintenance.

[k8icu]

I am a rare bird in that I enjoy my time in the garage turning a wrench. I enjoyed spending time with my son when he was younger working on my many M151s that I owned. I enjoy now working with my son-in-law working on the M37B3 project. For me spending time turning the wrench is a way to escape the troubles of everyday life. Then again maybe I’m a true old vehicle enthusiast because it’s not the finished product that brings me joy but the process getting it there. In my 25+ years in this hobby I have found that the majority of people who enjoy HMV as a hobby are people who like to tinker and turn wrenches and do their maintenance for them the project is never really done when it’s finished.

Charles it must be hard having a cylindrical wood object always imbedded your gluteus maximums! My last post was a joke. It was an attempt to make humor so as to bring an end to the conversation. Hence the smiling faces in the post so as to clue someone in that said statement is in fact a joke. Maybe if you removed said object it might help you to see humor when it’s written. Maybe if you weren’t using this form as your personal advertising space to hock your snake oil services you’d have time to remove that cylindrical wood object from your back side!

[Monkey Man]

End of discussion.....

Regards - MM