e87 gas

[NebM37]

This is a interesting question. E85 fuel is not near as "evil" as many would lead you to believe. Lifer is correct, the E85 is hard on "some" rubber types/alloys.

Keep something in mind, E85 is nothing more than diluted "moonshine" and during WW2 here in the Midwest and many other places, farm equipment and many automobiles were run on "shine" quite successfully to cope with fuel rations. The trick back then was to use a little "choke" to reduce the air intake, thus enriching the mixture, making the engine quite capable of a "dual fuel" mode. It is a bit more complicated than that these days, but not much.

You M37 would require a fuel system rebuild it most likely needs/has had. New Steel lines, a clean steel tank, a compatible fuel filter (most are) and rebuilding the fuel pump/carb with modern compatible components. You will need between a 30 and 40% richer jetting, just a small change in ignition timing and some hardened exhaust seats would not hurt. Or in simpler terms, about the same type of modifications you'd need to run any modern pump gas, with the exception of the obvious richer mixture.

For your trouble you will get a bit less fuel economy, and slightly harder cold starts.

Build the engine to run on E85 "higher compressions, increased airflow" and you will now have MORE power, and a cooler running engine for your trouble. And if you live in an area where E85 is a dollar cheaper a gallon, it would be quite cost effective actually given most of the modifications are already required in any restoration.

Those that doubt and question, feel free. I have run most all of my small engines, antique tractors and many other things INCLUDING some hard working 500hp well motors on E85 for quite some time.

NoRM

[vtdeucedriver]

Mix 100LL Avgas in with your 87 10% ethanol. The avgas will give you back the lead you have been missing for years and the octane will level out around 87 to 90. I've been running this mix for over 20 years with no problems. Only drawback is the price of the avgas.

As a aircraft mechanic and owner, I wanted to try this.............figure its better then a poor running M37

[cuz]

It was the fact I was an aircraft mechanic and owner that I got interested in the 100LL Avgas option. While in the Air Force for 22 years we still had large piston engine aircraft in the 60's and they used 115/145 Oct Avgas (purple dye). We use to run it in our flightline trucks every once in awhile to clean the cylinders/pistons/valves up.

[HingsingM37]

Longshot,
Most definetly keep that stuff out of there. Even the current Al Gore E85 vehicles made for that run awful on that stuff.
I stick to the good brands of 87 octane and sometimes mix 1/2 with 100LL Avgas for a treat. At $$4 a gallon it is only an ocasional treat Like I did with the resto, I now use my eBay and scrap metal funds to fuel the M. It keeps the wife happy that I don't use the daily driver gas card on the toy

[rixm37]

Great reply Norm. I agree with what you are saying. It is the route to take and it works.
My point is that there are groups and individuals that are working hard to ban what they see as old or offensive vehicles. Unfortunately our type of trucks fall into that category for those groups. So we as a hobby must keep an eye on legislation and programs like cash for clunkers. VOTE and support groups like the MVPA and SEMA who have organized legislation watchdogs and work hard to keep our hobby going and support positive legislation.

[Oddjob]

So... does anyone have a list of the rubber components in the fuel system that would have to be updated so they don't fall victim to the the ethanol they are blending in to gasoline...??? other than the diaphragm in the fuel pump...

[Josh]

the big problem with E85 is it is an oxidized fuel. Wehn ti comes into contact with unstable materials, it oxidizes them. Those materials include:

most rubbers (with viton, neoprene, and higher grades of NBR being the exception)

aluminum, the more pure the aluminum, the more likely to corrode

brass

some bronzes

copper

some tin alloys

so, off the top of my head, I would think it would attack:

The fuel sender, the fuel filter, the fuel pump, the carb, the fittings on the fuel lines, and all of the little parts and gaskets in between.

depending on the alloy, it MIGHT form a oxide layer, and then stop attacking whatever material it is. if it is a pure material, like pure copper, or aluminum, teh reaction will continue until the fuel is depleated, or the material is completely corroded.


We are getting ready to launch an E85 flex fuel air cooled V twin at work and had to change anything that it came into contact with that was not plastic or steel.

we are also fighting a problem with our old fuel filter from our old EFI system. Filter was designed by Bosch 30 years ago, and teh rubber grommet inside is a NBR, compound C, and it doesnt like more than 5% ethanol, our customers are having issues with the grommet swelling and blocking the fuel inlet when more than 5% ethanol is present, and compound C is a pretty resilient NBR compound.

[cuz]

Josh brings up an interesting point. Since most of the hobby's vehicles often set for long periods the mechanics of the evaporation process become interesting with today's gas containing ethanol.

Do the elements in today's gas evaporate at an equal rate? Or does the base fuel evaporate quicker than the ethanol? I would like to know so we can estimate the ethanol concentration percentage after long periods of setting.

I ask because it is quite obvious that the manufacturers for past few years have been designing their vehicles with certain ethanol percentages in mind.

[Master Yota]

I've a permanent solution - Move to Canada, we don't have E85. We do have an ethanol/methanol blended gasoline, but its only available at a few stations, and the remainder is plain old normal unleaded fuel. Another fuel option would be propane, or natural gas. A loss in engine power is actually a good thing, it takes longer to get where you're going, thus you actually get to drive your truck more..

As for the GREENIES - we need (as enthusiasts the world over) to stop trying to educate these people with facts. Zealots don't like facts, and do whatever they can to dismiss them. We need to fight their inacurate propoganda with propoganda of our own. Stuff like:

- A volcanic eruption anywhere in the world at any time will undo several years worth of polution control
- Our vehicles are environmentaly "paid for" ; no new materials have been harvested or mined to create them. They leave zero carbon foot print.
- Lead paint is good - lead is a natural element whereas modern paints are synthetic chemicals. Natural elements from the earth are better.
- BP has poluted more water than the next 4 generations of people.
- Plastic components fade and deteriorate in the sun. Steel lasts almost forever; which means less environmental impact from resource mining.

And so on....

Plus it would help if we could waterboard some of them....

[Lifer]

I like your approach, Master Yota! I like your approach!!

[Oddjob]

That's too funny... and it seems these genius's tend to create more problems trying to solve problems... like lower V.O.C. paint...

Ethanol... Oh Brother...

[vtdeucedriver]

I've a permanent solution - Move to Canada, we don't have E85. We do have an ethanol/methanol blended gasoline, but its only available at a few stations, and the remainder is plain old normal unleaded fuel. Another fuel option would be propane, or natural gas. A loss in engine power is actually a good thing, it takes longer to get where you're going, thus you actually get to drive your truck more..

As for the GREENIES - we need (as enthusiasts the world over) to stop trying to educate these people with facts. Zealots don't like facts, and do whatever they can to dismiss them. We need to fight their inacurate propoganda with propoganda of our own. Stuff like:

- A volcanic eruption anywhere in the world at any time will undo several years worth of polution control
- Our vehicles are environmentaly "paid for" ; no new materials have been harvested or mined to create them. They leave zero carbon foot print.
- Lead paint is good - lead is a natural element whereas modern paints are synthetic chemicals. Natural elements from the earth are better.
- BP has poluted more water than the next 4 generations of people.
- Plastic components fade and deteriorate in the sun. Steel lasts almost forever; which means less environmental impact from resource mining.

And so on....

Plus it would help if we could waterboard some of them....

We had a company that brought fuel down from canada and sold it here at their station. For some reason now they are not allowed to bring it across the border!!!!!!!!!!!

[vtdeucedriver]

I've a permanent solution - Move to Canada, we don't have E85. We do have an ethanol/methanol blended gasoline, but its only available at a few stations, and the remainder is plain old normal unleaded fuel. Another fuel option would be propane, or natural gas. A loss in engine power is actually a good thing, it takes longer to get where you're going, thus you actually get to drive your truck more..

As for the GREENIES - we need (as enthusiasts the world over) to stop trying to educate these people with facts. Zealots don't like facts, and do whatever they can to dismiss them. We need to fight their inacurate propoganda with propoganda of our own. Stuff like:

- A volcanic eruption anywhere in the world at any time will undo several years worth of polution control
- Our vehicles are environmentaly "paid for" ; no new materials have been harvested or mined to create them. They leave zero carbon foot print.
- Lead paint is good - lead is a natural element whereas modern paints are synthetic chemicals. Natural elements from the earth are better.
- BP has poluted more water than the next 4 generations of people.
- Plastic components fade and deteriorate in the sun. Steel lasts almost forever; which means less environmental impact from resource mining.

And so on....

Plus it would help if we could waterboard some of them....

We had a company that brought fuel down from canada and sold it here at their station. For some reason now they are not allowed to bring it across the border!!!!!!!!!!!

[vtdeucedriver]

I've a permanent solution - Move to Canada, we don't have E85. We do have an ethanol/methanol blended gasoline, but its only available at a few stations, and the remainder is plain old normal unleaded fuel. Another fuel option would be propane, or natural gas. A loss in engine power is actually a good thing, it takes longer to get where you're going, thus you actually get to drive your truck more..

As for the GREENIES - we need (as enthusiasts the world over) to stop trying to educate these people with facts. Zealots don't like facts, and do whatever they can to dismiss them. We need to fight their inacurate propoganda with propoganda of our own. Stuff like:

- A volcanic eruption anywhere in the world at any time will undo several years worth of polution control
- Our vehicles are environmentaly "paid for" ; no new materials have been harvested or mined to create them. They leave zero carbon foot print.
- Lead paint is good - lead is a natural element whereas modern paints are synthetic chemicals. Natural elements from the earth are better.
- BP has poluted more water than the next 4 generations of people.
- Plastic components fade and deteriorate in the sun. Steel lasts almost forever; which means less environmental impact from resource mining.

And so on....

Plus it would help if we could waterboard some of them....

We had a company that brought fuel down from canada and sold it here at their station. For some reason now they are not allowed to bring it across the border!!!!!!!!!!!

[vtdeucedriver]

I've a permanent solution - Move to Canada, we don't have E85. We do have an ethanol/methanol blended gasoline, but its only available at a few stations, and the remainder is plain old normal unleaded fuel. Another fuel option would be propane, or natural gas. A loss in engine power is actually a good thing, it takes longer to get where you're going, thus you actually get to drive your truck more..

As for the GREENIES - we need (as enthusiasts the world over) to stop trying to educate these people with facts. Zealots don't like facts, and do whatever they can to dismiss them. We need to fight their inacurate propoganda with propoganda of our own. Stuff like:

- A volcanic eruption anywhere in the world at any time will undo several years worth of polution control
- Our vehicles are environmentaly "paid for" ; no new materials have been harvested or mined to create them. They leave zero carbon foot print.
- Lead paint is good - lead is a natural element whereas modern paints are synthetic chemicals. Natural elements from the earth are better.
- BP has poluted more water than the next 4 generations of people.
- Plastic components fade and deteriorate in the sun. Steel lasts almost forever; which means less environmental impact from resource mining.

And so on....

Plus it would help if we could waterboard some of them....

We had a company that brought fuel down from canada and sold it here at their station. For some reason now they are not allowed to bring it across the border!!!!!!!!!!!