Walter

[JimC]

Ray is spot on.

[tbone1004]

thanks, I know what you were saying about the x-member, I was thinking since it was a tubular Kmember it might tuck in behind the pumpking, but I'll go traditional route.
I'm still going to pull the front clip at least for removal of the current drivetrain and cleaning everything up, but may think about sticking it back in for installation.

Re. fans. I'm still not a fan of mech fans unless they are clutch driven and even then, with the amount of slow speed idling that this is going to see, I would rather have a fan that doesn't have it's speed controlled by the engine rpm mainly because you don't need as much fan cooling going fast down the road, and you need more when you're idling around. The fan that I'm using is the same fan setup that is used by the Ford Taurus which there are a tremendous amount of discussions related to using that fan on a radiator designed for a mechanical fan since it pulls an ungodly amount of air. If it isn't cooling properly, I can always go back to a mech fan but it's worth trying.

Got the engine off of the trailer last night. I got motivated to let the better half have her side of the garage again since it's in single digits. The engine was stuck on the trailer because I didn't have the right jack for the engine hoist. New HF one didn't have mounting holes, but luckily the base fit between the existing mounting holes and with a couple of washers the bolts held it in place no problem. Pulled the engine off and got it resting in the wooden base to move around. My engine hoist has one frozen wheel and doesn't really wheel around easily on it's own, so I might just eat the $50 that it cost me and buy a new one. Even though it's a nice Made in USA model from Ex-Cell, it doesn't fold up, and has certainly seen better days.... Couple of stripped threads that need to be replaced on the mounting bolts and couple of other things, but it's definitely a beast...

[JimC]

If you install the electric fans, put them on the front side of the radiator. It has been my experience that you will be reinstalling the mechanical fan if you do any off-roading.

Good point about cleaning with the clip off, but having it on will make the engine installation go a lot easier.
Been there, done that. Used the Tee-shirt for a grease rag.

BTW, you can use the Pratt & Whitney equation to compute the mass airflow you will require based on the horsepower you are producing, and compare that with the output curves for the Taurus fan. Me, I just stuck in a mechanical fan with a lot of blades and didn't worry about conserving power.

[tbone1004]

only off roading I plan on doing is fire trails to camp sites and beach stuff, nothing hardcore at all

[Master Yota]

When I plan for an engine swap, I remove everything from the fire wall forward, and on the M, I simply remount the front fender/rad support w/o the rad installed in it. Its easy to work around, and its plainly evident if there is a conflict of space. The fenders can stay off, so long as the exhaust is tucked inside the frame rails. I don't start putting fenders back on until I have to start checking clearances for the engine accessories (alt, PS pump), and I usually find I have to modify the stock brackets or use aftermarket/fab brackets to move the accessories closer to the block to accommodate the taper of the engine bay.

As for the Taurus fan, by all means try it out. Just double check the overall dimensions to ensure it will fit within the width and height range of the rad support. That can't be changed as it holds up the front fenders. And the Taurus fans draw a ridiculous amount of amperage when running. So any expected "power" savings over a mech. fan will be lost to more load placed on the alternator. Tit for tat, so to speak.

Jim is right, plan you install around a mech. fan for clearance; if you don't use it, no big deal. If you need it and can't use it, then big deal.....

[JimC]

I believe Ray has done this before.

The hipo cast exhausts for the Windsor will cost about $275 and will be worth every penny. They will fit inside the frame rails.

About the only time I've spent on the highway has been enroute to the swamps and sandbars. (a slight exaggeration) I did use my 37 as a daily driver for a few years, starting back when I was 18 and it was my only vehicle.

I too, have had to hand build brackets for all the accessories, to pull them in tight enough to the engine to fit within the tapered cowl. Not a lot of room up front. I was stunned to hear that you have enough room up front to fit the serpentine system.

If you aren't really familiar with 37's, there is one caveat -- they will roll over very easily. I've had mine on its side and upside down several times.

[Master Yota]

I believe Ray has done this before.

The hipo cast exhausts for the Windsor will cost about $275 and will be worth every penny. They will fit inside the frame rails.

If you aren't really familiar with 37's, there is one caveat -- they will roll over very easily. I've had mine on its side and upside down several times.

Sanderson makes some very nice cast manifolds, pricey, but sweet. Conventional block hugger headers will also get the job done without breaking the bank.

I'm surprised you find the M to be quite tippy; I've always thought it was quite stable, with a comparatively low center of gravity when compared to trucks with massive lift running the same size tire, that is. I've flopped other rigs off road however, and although I've always blamed it on operator error, I'm still surprised when the truck falls over.

[tbone1004]

Thanks for the heads up. It will be clearanced for a mechanical fan when it gets installed. I know about the taurus amperage requirements but I'm thinking it will be leveraged by being able to run on the low speed or off the majority of the time while it is driving around. Thanks for the heads up on the headers, I think I'm going to port the stock logs and go with those for now since the bronco forums say that at the lower rpm's the stock logs are pretty darn good for torque numbers.
Re. the serpentine. From what I hear and have seen, if you take the serpentine system off of the Mustang 5.0's they become quite narrow. The max alternator amperage on the V-belt is 65amps and going to the serpentine would allow me to bump up to the 130a+ alternators, rather important since the Taurus draws 33a continuous when it's on high. Ultimately I want to go to a dual alternator setup so I can charge a "house battery" off of one, and the starting battery off of the other when I get more of the camping stuff put into this. This is a long way down the road though

Here is one without the AC compressor from an Explorer

[JimC]

Will that lower pulley in the 7 o'clock position clear the front pumpkin?

I have found on the bb, that most cast exhaust manifolds don't clear the framerails. Nor will headers. It took a specific set of cast truck manifolds to do the job. I don't know what the situation would be for the Windsor.

Out of idle curiosity, what is the advantage of electric fans in a 37 ?

Ray, the scenarios that have tumbled me are, in no particular order -

While on a sideslope, dropping one front tire in a deep rut that is at an angle to the direction of travel
Same while catching one front tire on an angled log
(both the above yank the steering wheel out of your hands and take it to full lock)
You don't have to be going all that fast, 20-25 mph will do it.

Tumbling down off the top of the White River levee while trying to recover from a skid

And last, though it hasn't totally gotten away from me yet, crossing a row crop diagonally at high speed gets scary when the spring rate starts synchronizing with the row seperation The truck starts rocking violently from side to side, getting worse each time.
It has scared me bad enough to get my foot out of the carburetor.

[Master Yota]

Will that lower pulley in the 7 o'clock position clear the front pumpkin?

I have found on the bb, that most cast exhaust manifolds don't clear the framerails. Nor will headers. It took a specific set of cast truck manifolds to do the job. I don't know what the situation would be for the Windsor.

Out of idle curiosity, what is the advantage of electric fans in a 37 ?

Ray, the scenarios that have tumbled me are, in no particular order -

While on a sideslope, dropping one front tire in a deep rut that is at an angle to the direction of travel
Same while catching one front tire on an angled log
(both the above yank the steering wheel out of your hands and take it to full lock)
You don't have to be going all that fast, 20-25 mph will do it.

Tumbling down off the top of the White River levee while trying to recover from a skid

And last, though it hasn't totally gotten away from me yet, crossing a row crop diagonally at high speed gets scary when the spring rate starts synchronizing with the row seperation The truck starts rocking violently from side to side, getting worse each time.
It has scared me bad enough to get my foot out of the carburetor.

Definitely with a BB the extra width will make exhaust a challenge, but the SB log manifolds should be reasonably painless to work with. That being said, it'll mostly fall upon how competent the shop is doing the exhaust work. The best manifold fitment in the world is useless if they can't make nice quality bends and do a good job hooking up the system.

The benefit of the E-fan in an M, is basically the same as any other vehicle with an electric fan; less load on the engine eventually trickles up into better MPG, or at least that's the theory. The other benefit is the same volume of air constantly being drawn through the radiator regardless of engine rpm. A clutch driven mech. fan works under the same principles. At low rpm the fan is engaged to keep the engine cool, and at/just below cruising rpm the cluch disengages to reduce engine load, boosting mpg. At cruising speed the air forced through the rad at speed is usually enough to keep the engine at its prime operating temperature. Clutch fans get fooled badly off road though, as its common to see high engine rpms,(no fan engagement) with little to no external air velocity (ram air through the rad from speed) and things start to overheat quickly. An E-fan is an easy way around this issue.

I'll admit that I must be some kind of special, as all my rolls and flops have taken place at more of a walking speed than anything even close to 20 mph. I've experienced your first example Jim first hand, only mine was facing down hill with a deep rut in front of the drivers side tire, and a big log under the pass. rear tire. That flopped me onto the drivers side right above a 3' drop into a 3' deep mud hole. I felt particularly lucky that I wasn't trying to swim out of the truck. Of course, all my gear bailed out of the box and the surrounding area looked like a hillbilly yard sale, but it was nothing a few feet of winch cable and a snatch block couldn't fix...

[JimC]

I'm not a fan of clutch fans on a 37 because they aren't working when you need them and they don't boost highway mileage on a 37 by all that much anyway. Re ram boost from dynamic pressure recovery, it is inconsequential at off road speeds.

From memory, at 120 mph dynamic recovery is only about 0.52 inch of mercury and with typical recovery efficiency on the loose order of 50%, only a quarter inch of that is usable. At typical M37 speeds it is almost unmeasurable. For example, at 30 mph, it is about 0.03 inch with half of that usable. 1 atmosphere is of course, 29.92 inches.

[Master Yota]

Even at such a low speed it still boils down to air movement over the fins and tubes of the exposed radiator. At highway speeds the "dynamic pressure wave" will still force more air through the rad than the fan will naturally pull. Ultimately, air movement is limited by the size of the fan and what the cfm its capable of moving. Most newer vehicles with an electric fan have small "flapper" covers built into the solid fan shroud. These flappers open up at highway speed to allow the excess air volume from the pressure wave to escape from the inside of the fan shroud; thus bypassing the limitations of the fan size and allowing for more cooling from a smaller fan cfm. At low/no vehicle speed, the fan generates a vacuum inside the shroud as it pulls air through the rad, the flappers close, allowing the smaller fan to provide the maximum cooling effect that its capable of.

Any complaints about mileage are moot, as any engine will deliver better mileage than the 230.

[JimC]

Interesting. Sounds like the physics of the airflow for automobiles is different from airplanes, where the outlet area is decreased as speed increases. I'm having some trouble seeing an incremental increase of inlet pressure of less than 0.02" Hg (about 30 mph with average recovery loss) having much impact on mass airflow. The design process must be quite different from the procedure we use when designing cooling systems for aircraft engines.

As an aside, what dISA are automotive systems usually designed for? For aircraft, we usually use +40F, but I dunno for cars.

[Master Yota]

Interesting. Sounds like the physics of the airflow for automobiles is different from airplanes, where the outlet area is decreased as speed increases. I'm having some trouble seeing an incremental increase of inlet pressure of less than 0.02" Hg (about 30 mph with average recovery loss) having much impact on mass airflow. The design process must be quite different from the procedure we use when designing cooling systems for aircraft engines.

As an aside, what dISA are automotive systems usually designed for? For aircraft, we usually use +40F, but I dunno for cars.

You've lost me Jim, I don't know what dISA refers too...

...and while this does make for interesting reading, I'm sure Tbone would like to have his thread back about his truck...

[JimC]

Yeah, he probably would. We can start another thread to continue this.
dISA is the acronym for 'delta International Standard Atmosphere'. It prescribes how hot a day we are designing the cooling system for -- the departure from the standard atmosphere.