Modern engine oils and Older DIESEL engines

[cuz]

Can anyone comment on this issue as applied ONLY to the diesel engine?

[Lifer]

I drove a Euclid dump truck in a limestone quarry for a couple of years. You can't find a much dustier environment than that without going to "the sandbox." Anyway, the engines in those things hold a LOT of oil, so complete oil changes were only done once a year. We had a representative from Standard Oil Co attend our annual maintenance meeting the first year I was there, and we were told that it is not necessary to change oil as long as you change the filter regularly and top off the reservoir when you're done. According to the ESSO engineers, oil does not break down. The additives in it will dissipate over time, but the oil itself is still good. Keep the oil clean, and it will last "forever" was the message he delivered.

My current daily driver, a '92 Dodge Dakota, gets a new filter every 6 months and a complete oil change every 2 years. It has 224,000 miles on it and still runs strong.

I know, we've always been told that you should change your oil "every 90 days" or "every 3,000 miles," or whatever other interval our coaches have favored and most of us follow that advice religiously. Is it absolutely necessary? Probably not. Does it make us more comfortable to keep doing it? Probably.

My take on the situation is this: change your oil as often as you think necessary, using whatever brand/type of oil you prefer. Then keep it clean and topped off, and you should not have any problems.

[cuz]

Very interesting.

[DAP]

And diesel engines? For those of us who have gone to 4BT or Hercules or ..........

[MSeriesRebuild]

I could shed a lot of insight if time permitted, however I just don't have it. I will say it is foolish to think along the lines that cheaper oils are great if changed often, not true. Over time, technology has brought lubricants far as it has most everything. Higher end oils with strong additive packages will win every time. Neither is it wise to believe changing a filter once in a while and not the oil will do the trick, it won't. If you plan to do that, you better have a serious bypass filter system in conjunction with the full flow, or you will have many contaminates that are never filtered out slowly killing your engine. Doing frequent oil analysis is the ONLY smart way to extend oil drain intervals. The test shows all sorts of issues if they are going on as well as the condition of the oils additive package, you will know when a drain is needed before you go too far. Oil analysis has proven to save much $$$ in unnecessary drains. To think you can just come up with correct or even adequate drain intervals because of what some rep may have said, RIDICULOUS!! Any reputible representative will tell you to get on an analysis program if you plan to go for extended drain intervals, otherwise unless you want issues, you need to stay with drain intervals that are close enough to be certain you are not pushing the envelope. Your engines life depends on it.

[Josh]

The bigger question is this:

Is the engine turbocharged or not?

Turbo engines, gas, or diesel, are hell on oil. The oil is pumped through a casting that sees prolonged temperatures several hundred degrees higher than anywhere else in the egine. It's then used to support a couple of journal bearings that are spinning at 100-200K RPM... causing insane shear in the oil... literally slicing and dicing the oil particles. This is particularily true if the turbo does not have water cooling lines, as the ones I picked for my engine. These are Cummins/Holset units, and there are very few Cummins/Holset turbos with water cooling. The turbocharger on my daily driver (Mazdaspeed 6) does have water cooling lines, but, since it is really too small for the application, temperatures still get very high in it. As such, I try to walk a fine line between changing oil too soon, or too late. I run shell Rotella T 5w-40 in the Mazda, as the additive package is specifically engineered for turbocharged, direct injected diesel engines. My 2.3L mazda is one of the first direct injected gas engines, and the high pressure fuel pump sees the same lubricant sheer forces as most diesels do, so I view running it as a prudent decision, even if mazda says gasoline engine oil changed every 10K miles is fine, I disagree... they're not the ones that have to pay for the turbocharger replacement at 80K miles when it is out of warranty. As most cars come with longer and longer warranties, you will see a trend to decrease maintenance intervals as a cost saving measure for the car companies. It's called "Engineered obsolescence" in teh automotive industry, and it's a fancy way of saying, do as little as possible to make it out of warranty, so we can make money on service later.

There is a caveat though. Changing oil or filters too frequently not only wastes perfectly good oil, but cna actually decrease your filtration efficiency, as the closer a filter comes to being full, the better it performs. Getting a filter with a high single pass efficiency, that peaks out quickly, and holds for a long time is the best filtration strategy.

I do 3K mile changes on the mazda (and will do the same on the truck when its running) for these reasons:

Turbos are hard on oil.

injector pumps are hard on oil.

Diesels usually have both, so, change it often!

[Lifer]

There seems to be some well-thought-out commentary going on here. That's what the forum is all about, isn't it?
Anyway, my previous post reflected information I obtained in 1968 (41 years ago???) as it pertained to the non-turbo 4 and 6-cylinder Detroit diesels in our '40s and '50's vintage equipment. Much has changed in the ensuing years with regard to both engine and lubricant technology. The point the ESSO engineer was making was that the oil, itself, did not "wear out." The additives did, but the oil did not. There are far more additives now than there were then, and there are valid reasons for having them in the first place, so it makes sense that the old advice is not valid for newer engines.
I do have one question, though. Where does one go for an oil analysis?? All we have around here are quick-stop mini-marts where we can buy the oil, and they neither install nor analyze it for you. A full-service station with an analysis lab would be great, but where do ya find one??

[MSeriesRebuild]

There seems to be some well-thought-out commentary going on here. That's what the forum is all about, isn't it?
Anyway, my previous post reflected information I obtained in 1968 (41 years ago???) as it pertained to the non-turbo 4 and 6-cylinder Detroit diesels in our '40s and '50's vintage equipment. Much has changed in the ensuing years with regard to both engine and lubricant technology. The point the ESSO engineer was making was that the oil, itself, did not "wear out." The additives did, but the oil did not. There are far more additives now than there were then, and there are valid reasons for having them in the first place, so it makes sense that the old advice is not valid for newer engines.
I do have one question, though. Where does one go for an oil analysis?? All we have around here are quick-stop mini-marts where we can buy the oil, and they neither install nor analyze it for you. A full-service station with an analysis lab would be great, but where do ya find one??

Oil analysis is huge business these days, not an issue to get hooked up. All the major lube brands offer the service, some filter manufacturer's offer it also. I know Baldwin Filters that we use here offer the service, they also offer sample kits for retrieving an oil sample to send off to the lab, also offer quick open valve set ups that are plumbed into the engine oil galley for quick collection of a sample. Lots of diesel engines these days have this sample collection valve from the factory. Independent labs also have offerings. Most trucking Companies operate their service schedules according to oil analysis as well as grading contractors, etc. Ask around these places in your area to find out where the service is available. Getting on an analysis program will quickly weed out the lesser quality oil brands for you also. The testing will show quickly just how fast the additive package in the oil is depleted, cheaper over the counter brands deplete super fast leaving your engine basically unprotected. High end oils with a high TBN# offer much better long lasting additive protection, you must read the spec sheets on products to obtain this information, product suppliers that won't offer spec sheets on their products, well they have something to hide that they rather you didn't know, a poor quality product. The only really good oils at Wal-Mart are Rotella T and Chevron DELO. Even these pale in comparision to the really higher end products for example, Royal Purple Synthetics, Synergyn, and Hydrotex. Of course these are high $$ products, but if you care to check them out, you will absolutely find that the extra quality they offer is off the charts, others don't even come close.

A word about what the ESSO Rep had to say, that was many years ago, changes have been drastic. You said the equipment was running Detroit Diesels, ye old famous oil leakers. We had a saying when I was in the grading business if we were running Detroits; if it ain't leaking, you better be pouring some in, cause it has run dry. In those days, there was truth to changing the filter and keeping the oil pan topped off working pretty well. Oil was the cheapest thing going and nobody paid attention to ground contamination, you just keep it topped off and run'um. The Detroits leaked enough that adding was a frequent thing, thus new oil going in kept things freshened up. Today's engines don't leak much if any and aren't exorbitant oil consumers for the most part, so unless you drain a portion to make room for the freshen up, it just doesn't happen like it did in the old days.

Oil analysis in a personal vehicle may not be cost effective unless you are willing to use the best quality oils. With the lesser quality stuff, testing will have to be frequent to get a good picture of the schedule you need to be on. Testing cost $$, if running the high end stuff, you can comfortably test less often because you know the products you use are doing a good job for a longer time. Once you test a few times to see what the limits are with your engine, then you can use the program to your advantage with peace of mind. The condition of your engine plays a huge role also, a poor condition engine will deplete the oil, high end or not a lot faster than an good condition, good performing engine. The best policy, start out with a good engine, put the best products, (oil and filters) into common practice, analyze to establish what the limits are, and stay on the program. You will be able to extend drain intervals well and not worry about your engine's proper protection.

Just a note here that comes to mind concerning FRAM filters, they are total junk from the word go, NEVER use a Fram filter. Ever wonder why they are top of the line at Wal-Mart where folks go looking for CHEAP and not thinking of what cheap really gets you these days? Such outlets are way more interested in offering cheap than they are quality, definitely you need to be a careful shopper when frequenting these types of retailers.

[Captnsim]

Don't get me going on Fram filters...I'll leave it at avoid at all cost!
Great info here guys.

[cuz]

I've been in the maintenance side of the aviation industry for over 55 years. We have used Oil Analysis programs the entire period. From the $5 sample kits to the present $15 kits. An important thing to be sure of is that the lab you use is a true independent (read not being subsidized by a specific brand oil company).

cheaper over the counter brands deplete super fast leaving your engine basically unprotected. High end oils with a high TBN# offer much better long lasting additive protection

Keep in mind that all oils will eventually break down to a level that can harm your engine. High end oils just last longer but they too have a finite point where they will need replacing. Using the oil analysis system lets you determine when the oil you are using will reach a reduced level of performance and can be harmful to your engine. Then you decide which oil you want to use and how long you want to leave it in the engine.

The accuracy of an oil analysis program rests heavily on your ability to provide uncontaminated and consistent samples. As long as the samples are done exactly the same way each time you can establish very accurate trends. A quality analysis program will provide you a guide to help you interpret the results of each sample. Once a base line spectrum of the chemical properties of your oil as run in your engine is established you can then watch and evaluate the trends over the long term. It is these long terms trends that provide you the data needed to make oil use management decisions.

A problem unique to classic vehicles is their utilization rates by their owners. For example a rig driven hard for 6 moths of warm weather and parked for the winter with an occasional ride will probably get one or two oil changes a year initially. The sample results can be easily skewered if you take the one in the middle of the hard summer driving period and then follow with one in the dormant period. So try to take the samples under the same operating conditions each time. Granted a very long term of sampling can be averaged out but it works much better and quicker if you start on a program and stay consistent for the first year or two so you can determine your immediate trend tendencies and set up a oil management plan for that engine.

Also notice I mention a year or two above. Unless you are driving 5,000 to 20,000 miles per year it will take a year or two to get a set of samples that good decisions can be made off of.

[MSeriesRebuild]

I've been in the maintenance side of the aviation industry for over 55 years. We have used Oil Analysis programs the entire period. From the $5 sample kits to the present $15 kits. An important thing to be sure of is that the lab you use is a true independent (read not being subsidized by a specific brand oil company).

cheaper over the counter brands deplete super fast leaving your engine basically unprotected. High end oils with a high TBN# offer much better long lasting additive protection

Keep in mind that all oils will eventually break down to a level that can harm your engine. High end oils just last longer but they too have a finite point where they will need replacing. Using the oil analysis system lets you determine when the oil you are using will reach a reduced level of performance and can be harmful to your engine. Then you decide which oil you want to use and how long you want to leave it in the engine.

The accuracy of an oil analysis program rests heavily on your ability to provide uncontaminated and consistent samples. As long as the samples are done exactly the same way each time you can establish very accurate trends. A quality analysis program will provide you a guide to help you interpret the results of each sample. Once a base line spectrum of the chemical properties of your oil as run in your engine is established you can then watch and evaluate the trends over the long term. It is these long terms trends that provide you the data needed to make oil use management decisions.

A problem unique to classic vehicles is their utilization rates by their owners. For example a rig driven hard for 6 moths of warm weather and parked for the winter with an occasional ride will probably get one or two oil changes a year initially. The sample results can be easily skewered if you take the one in the middle of the hard summer driving period and then follow with one in the dormant period. So try to take the samples under the same operating conditions each time. Granted a very long term of sampling can be averaged out but it works much better and quicker if you start on a program and stay consistent for the first year or two so you can determine your immediate trend tendencies and set up a oil management plan for that engine.

Also notice I mention a year or two above. Unless you are driving 5,000 to 20,000 miles per year it will take a year or two to get a set of samples that good decisions can be made off of.

This is a very good guide for getting started.

We have done both the moderately priced products and the higher end stuff. Either requires getting a base line established for getting on a schedule. I agree the more consistent the better. The higher end products will get the longer drain interval results in the end every time, and will result in cost savings in almost every situation over the long haul. Better protection of vital engine components will also result with the better quality products, the longer drain interval is certainly not the only benefit recognized from using the best oils. With analysis telling you when your oil is getting to the point of lacking the ability for protection, an established drain interval within good timing as the oil starts to lose protective properties is easily established. Much less frequent testing is required then just to be sure nothing within the engine is starting to break down, example; coolant getting into oil, fuel getting into oil, heavier than normal concentrations of various particulates in the oil, etc., very important factors in catching a failing engine before it actually goes down as a result. Can save huge $$$ in repair cost in many cases, because you have advanced warning that a situation is going on. Usually way sooner than you would detect otherwise.

[refit1701]

What's the best filter brand? I mean for modern trucks like my F-150?

[Josh]

I use purolator pure one. Very high efficiency ratings, with high volume and surface area, backed by a good, metal encased element design. no cardboard and glue here!

[Sal]

What do you think of putting a magnet on the oil filter or oil pan ?

[Josh]

it certainly cant hurt. I'd rely on the lagnet to hold itself to the pan,so that you can remove it during oil changes and flush the metal particles out with the old oil.