Good trip gone crappy.....

[Monkey Man]

Does it get any worse??, Hell yes, the pic of the axle in the tube is not the axle, it's a plug made from the axle that is actually broken into 3 sections, the outer we have out, the inner is still in the diff and the plug is the bugbear of all bugbears at present. I have been using a length of bar and a sledgehammer it just isn't budging so I'll have to get some advice on cutting or grinding methods that may be applicable to this problem, I have to say, I am over this....
I have got a theory as to the faliure and I am not passing blame for the breakage, blaming Daniel or anyone else or making claims of my intellectual prowess as I am no engineer by any stretch of the imagination but here goes. The fault seems it isn't a heat treatment fault but the thing is just too big for the axle tube in the stub assembly and rubs, eventually heats up, fragments and peens just a little then an avalanche effect comes into play ending up in a catastrophic component failure. As the rub mark on both axles (but only on one side of the axle and graduates from less to nothing by the time it gets to the other side and some rubbing further out on the unbroken axle) was noted when I swapped the diffs but everything seemed to run true and even when I ran it all no drag or misalignment was evident, flex in the axle under torque load? Measuring back from the drive flange the short axle failed at the same distance as the rub mark on the good axle shown in the pic.

Axle stub inner diameter 36.0mm / 1.417"

Standard Dodge Axle (measured on what's left of an old one I had broken at the spline)
31.96mm / 1.256" at the spline tapering back to 31.7mm / 1.245" at 1" from the drive flange and back up to 32.8mm / 1.295 for the last 1" to the drive flange

Tibus Axle
35.0mm / 1.377"

Tibus Axle where it has been rubbed the most
3.486mm / 1.372"

I am probarbly wrong, someone will most likely point out where I am wrong and so they should but it seems the Dodge axle, although thinner is designed to run in the axle housing with tolerances for torque flex and anything else that may provide a variance in the axle shaft or even a slightly imperfect axle shaft.
Anyway, I am not going to go too far into it, I'll now replace both axles with NOS or takeout units from wherever I can as I will not chance a repeat of this problem as if I can't get the broken axle section that has welded itself into the stub tube out I have pretty well come to a standstill unless I can get or devise a tool to cut or grind it out.
ALL ideas and suggestions welcomed as I am coming to the end of any patience I may have had with this repair.

MM

Axle rub Pic

[Monkey Man]

I am thinking a 35mm or 36mm tungsten toothed holesaw (whatever fits best and will remove less of the outer diameter material) with cutting fluid to clean the tube, the outer metal should have lost its tempering in the friction welding process so if i nibble away with that it should cut any fusion points away and leave relatively clean tubing that only needs honing, more wishful thinking maybe but I'll give it a go....

MM

[w30bob]

Hi MM,

Interesting stuff, although I'm sorry it's at your expense.

So if I'm following your right, the new axles have a slightly larger OD, but didn't rub when you installed them cold. Yet looking now you see the rub mark on the non-failed axle and it's in the same place on the failed axle. So my question is....assuming the OD of the axle stays pretty much the same over its length.....what's going on inside the axle tube at the point where it's rubbing? Is the axle tube ID constant or does it have a smaller ID at that point where you're seeing the rubbing? I'm guessing that if the tube ID is constant the only explanation left is what you say....both axles are flexing at that point when loaded. I would think they would flex at exactly the halfway point along their length....but there could be other things going on. Like I said....interesting stuff, albeit a nightmare for the person who has to fix it.

Thanks again for sharing,
bob

[T. Highway]

MM,

I would be concerned about being able to hold the hole saw on center while you reach into the housing. My fear would be dragging the heel of the hole saw and creating a bigger problem with the end doing the cutting.
I would use a flex hone with coarse stones and set a bit on the firm side. This is pure speculation because it's hard to assess what is going on by looking at pictures here on the net.

Keep us posted,

Bert

[Monkey Man]

the Hole saw won't be a problem Bert, as there's already a lot of tube to guide it a liberal coating of oil will keey it running happy and true, a flexhone is no good at present as there is just the rough broken mess at the end and it would destroy the hone, I have to remove it and clean it up as best as possible or the whole axle housing is useless otherwise, changing that out is beyond painful, just as well I have one here as a last resort as getting one from the US would be inthinkably expensive once freight was calculated in....
I'll get what I need today and start into it tonight if I get the time

MM

[RMS]

that's just brutal MM. as the story was unfolding i could not wrap my head around the loud squeaking. I was sure it was going to be some kind of bearing issue, either wheel or diff. I never would have thought it was from the shaft rubbing in the tube.

was the once front diff that is now in the back a ww2 half ton diff ? how many gaskets were used if any?

I dont know what rear ends are available in your neck of the woods but If I was looking at having a axle housing shipped half way around the world I would be looking for a 4.89 gear set for the front and a 4.88 14bolt or Eaton to put in the back. your m37 would look sick with dually's in the back

I hope it doesn't get to that point, keep us posted

[Monkey Man]

The front diff is genuine M37, swapped from front to rear with no gasket, may have played some part in it by making it worse but I did see the rub marks (much feinter) when I removed the axles last year, I just thought, as discussed on here previously it was ok to leave the gasket off but that would be with a standard axle in the equation I guess. When I get axles I'll get a new diff gasket set for each end as I am happier with them in there but live and learn I guess.
Based on what I have found I still think Daniels axles are fine, However......
If you have them, slip them out and look to see if they are rubbing, measure the diameter, mine were 35mm and if so take them to a machine shop and get them wet belt lanished down a couple of millimeters for at least the length of the stub axle tube and a bit more for clearance and all should be fine, if they measure smaller and are not rubbing (32-33mm) then just slip them back in and go with confidence and forget all problems I have had as I am confident you will not have an issue and I would gladly have the same axles given I had the clearance issues sorted, like I said, this is not a dig at Daniel, all the axles he had as samples (and the ones in his truck) were made with better clearances from what he said, maybe I literally got an unfinished set and they are indeed meant to be lanished down to a set diameter but were not, anyway, I am just guessing...

MM

[RMS]

The front diff is genuine M37, swapped from front to rear with no gasket

I just thought, as discussed on here previously it was ok to leave the gasket off

John Zentmyer compiled a interchange manual back in the 80s that has some real good info. TM9-1808C, Power trains and interchanges: Military/civilian trucks 1941 to 1971 Dodge.
by John Zentmyer Copies may be ordered from Industrial Products Company,P.O. box 2144,Toluca Lake, CA 91602.
A small taste from TM 9-1808c .

I know we are not mixing parts around but its interesting to note that the military felt it important to specify with a weld on tag to use ONE gasket on the rear ends that got the 1/16th ring rather than three.
I hope john doesn't mind sharing a bit of info. If you would like more of this TM order one "the author needs the money"

[Monkey Man]

OK, so I do require one gasket on an M37 Diff to keep it happier, this would explain why the axle rubbed sufficiently worse to cause the fail as it had rubbed previously but not as bad with a gasket fitted but it is still a matter of clearance tolerance on the axles I have given they did rub with 1 diff gasket fitted, Is it still a clearance issue that does not seem to be exhibited on an M37 with standard axles and no gasket at all fitted (or is it, pipe up guys if you have no gasket and an excessive axle breakage problem) but point taken, so I guess this means pull the front diff also?? Most likely not given the build of the 2 part axle assembly with the tracta joint inline but I may well do so simply to keep my mind at rest now.
I am almost to the point of "fix it and get rid of the bloody thing" but that is just frustration talking I think, I have to move on, get the problem fixed and have a good think about it all, I can do a full "strip rebuild by the book" but the truck simply isn't worth that to me given it only goes to a few shows and does a couple of parades a year plus I have had it for 17 years and may be a little bored with it.
Sorry to seem a little crabby over the matter, a broken axle is one thing, an axle section welded into the stub is beyond what I would expect but live and learn I guess, the blame is soley on me and I accept it, now I have to fix my F up and see what happens next....

MM

[RMS]

the four axles i have/had kicking around that have broken axles in them all have silicone and no gaskets.

i can only imagine how frustrating it is, honestly i cant even picture what it would be like to have a vehicle that I could not get parts for locally. I would like to have a CMP and there are some around but if i needed a part it would have to come from your neck of the woods or denmark.

im curios what kind of axles are common around you?

I have a spare 4.89 ring and pinion you can have that has some wear but would be fine for the front if you can come up with something with a 4.88 for the rear. you would still have to figure what to do about the wheels but i tell ya i would be board with my 37 if i still had 5.83s

I'm not trying to make more work for you but I have had nightmares about what you're dealing with.

[Brett]

MM. Have you tried to remove the diff yet. If you could get the diff out, you might be able to drive the busted piece in to the housing. Just a thought.

Brett

[Monkey Man]

RMS, I'll stick to the kiss principle (Keep it simple stupid) repair for now and fit a new gasket, 2 NOS axles once I have them and worry about mods later but thanks for the offer on the ring and pinion. Parts are not too much of a worry bar the postage but the good folks on here have helped me out with sourcing and supplying thins I cannot get here on many occasions and I am VERY grateful indeed for all the help I have received in the past. I have sent Daniel an E-Mail re the axle failure and that although lightly touching before the fault has been caused by me not fitting another gasket which in turn caused the clearance issue to be magnified that being on the short axle (more change over a lesser distance causing more pressure on the rub point).
Like I said, I get the blame for this whole mess, I did what I thought was right but it was wrong, if you have Daniels axles, till pull them out and check for rub marks plus if you have no gasket in there then get one and fit it, my dead gasket I kept for a template only measures 1mm thick but it's all it took it seems
As far as being a mechanic goes I make an acceptable? site moderator but that's about it.......I'll tackle the job again do it differently based on what I have learned from on here and thanks to you guys for the input and advice, I'll post pics of the welded in axle bit removal as I achieve it (well, try to anyhow).

Brett, can't get the diff out as the inner 3rd bit of axle has it trapped in there, I'll keep plugging away at it.

MM

[Monkey Man]

the four axles i have/had kicking around that have broken axles in them all have silicone and no gaskets.

Sorry RMS, I should have been more specific, per the tm, with no gaskets fitted was the breakage at the outer end of the axle? Breakages at the inner end still seem to the Throttle, not misalignment related, or both, I was just curious....

MM

[RMS]

from what i can remember the breakages were all over the map mainly on the short side some were broken close to the flange and one twisted right at the splines.

how is the removal coming did you get the last of the bits out?

I will pull the shafts on the 43 over the weekend and take some pics when Im at my buddys house. the others are berried and I no longer have a forklift so accessing them is tough.
I miss my m43 traded it to a buddy for a set of 4.89s

[Monkey Man]

Don't go to all that trouble on my account, I'll take your word for it
The simple boring jig is almost finished and I'll report back soon, at the end of this weekend I want to have completed removing the blockage, repairing the damage to the stub tube, removing the inner axle section and have the diff out ready for a thorough axle housing cleanout. I can then refir the diff with a newly made gasket, slip some end caps on the hubs, fill the diff and and use the truck for the upcoming ANZAC day parade, fitting new axles once I get them and slipping the tailshaft back in will be a very simple job indeed.
I would miss your M43 too, nice looking jigger...

MM