FRUSTRATED

HingsingM37 · Post by **HingsingM37** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:14 pm

Well gang, after three years of smooth restoration I have never come so close to throwing in the towel as I am now. The story thus far:

Over the last two weeks I have been buttoning up my rebuild. Last week I go to fire her up and BAM-BAM. One out the exhaust and one backfire out the carb. Ok, obviously timing.I had recently installed the oil pump and figured that would be the first place to start. I pull the cap and with one at TDC the rotor is at six. I do a 180 on the pump timing gear and try her again. She catches, runs for about 30 seconds and I shut her down as I did not have coolant in her. I wanted to make sure it was going to run before I bolted the radiator and filled it up with coolant.
Cool I thought. So I bolt in the radiator and fill it up. Now today I go to start it and nothing. It acts like it wants to catch but just won't. Like a timing issue. Ok, so maybe I am a tooth off on the pump? It still should do something, it ran last week. So I decide to check the mechanical timing from scratch. I run #1 to TDC both valves closed. I pull the oil pump. I re-set everything by the book. I had to turn the pump 180 again??? So now with number one at TDC, both valves closed, which should be the firing position?, the rotor is now at 6 o'clock? This isn't right, is it? If I run number 6 up to TDC, both valves closed, the rotor is at 1 o'clock. This is how it was originally when I got the backfires

. What am I missing here? Did a gnome put the whammy on my by switching my camshafts? If I put the oil pump in to align the distributor rotor to fire at number one TDC, valves closed, (180 from where it is now) then it puts the distributor drive gear on the oil pump opposite what it is supposed to be when aligning the narrow part of the slot with the heavy side of the pump flange.
So I then start to think, maybe the crank to cam timing is off. Despite me checking it twice before assy. At this point I am going nuts and believe anything is possible. So I spend an hour draining the radiator, yanking the engine mount so I could pull the timing cover. Marks are dead on. I have re-checked the valves. Compression on my fresh bores is @100lbs. It has not run long enough for the rings to seat. One way backfires, the other it struggles to start.

I am not sure I am even making sense here. Send me a sedative please....
With the distributor zero degrees vertical to the block, should the rotor be pointing at the vent fitting for seven o'clock or closer to the center screw hole for the cap? I cant tell seven o'clock from 8??
I am about ready to send it on a pallet to Charles. Am I missing the obvious??Help!

l

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:42 pm

Been there...several times. I currently have the engine to my M38A1 strewn about the garage for a simple rear main oil seal change. A case of "while I'm in here" that got a bit out of hand.

A very similar problem was kicking my butt until Charles bailed me out.

Are you aware that are two adjustment slots on the distributor plate? The plate that the distro to block bolt (the one you normal use to adjust the timing) has another slot and bolt. The bolt head is on the bottom of the distributor, and it's a pain to get at while the distrubutor is installed (I come up from the bottom). With the engine at #1 TDC, I set the easy-to-get-at bolt at mid-range, and tighten it. I then loosen the other bolt and rotate the distro until the points just begin to open. Then tighten that bolt up. If the mechanicals are according to the book, it ought to fire. I now have enough throw with the distro to block bolt to fine adjust the timing. Clear as mud? I regret I can't post a picture; my truck is on the other side of the continent.

I think better than I type. Maybe someone can fill any holes I've left...

Dave

Post by **Cal_Gary** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:08 am

Hingsing,
I have a civilian distributor so I can't help as far as your description, but I will ask-do you have your spark plug wires aligned for a clockwise or counter-clockwise distribution rotation? You'll get all the popping, etc. if they're wired bass-ackward, even with all your timing marks "dead on" because it will fire correctly on #1 and not much else.
Gary

HingsingM37 · Post by **HingsingM37** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:36 am

Thanks guys.
Dave, I tried the slot on the distributor. No results.
Cal, I put the wires on as described in the manual, clockwise rotation, 1-5-ect..assuming the military manual is correct? I have tried the other carb and distributor as well.
Even if something is amiss it should do more than it is.
It's just whacky.

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:22 pm

Hmmmm....curiouser and curiouser.

Well, back to basics. It needs fuel, air, and sparks. I don't mean to belittle you at all here, I find that I can get wrapped around the axle on something simple. Such as the time I was convinced I was having an ignition problem. I was on my way to work, when the engine would cut out intermitantly, then catch again. I limped it the last three miles into work. Long story short-I was out of gas. My clue should have been the fact it was cutting out on the uphill pulls. That quart of gas in my Racor filter/separator kept me going that last little bit.

You sound as though you have the engine timing set up properly. So, are you getting good blue spark at the plug end of the ignition wire? It doesn't have to be in time to get spark. No spark=electrical issue.

Is the fuel pump working? Is the carb working? Do you smell gas when you crank?

Do you have a clear air passage?

We'll take 'er from there...

HingsingM37 · Post by **HingsingM37** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:37 pm

Thanks for checking back Dave,
No I don't feel belittled

At this point I think I am looking over the obvious and apppreciate your input.
Fuel is good. Spark I will check again Saturday as I have to rob the battery out of the daily driver to crank my rig. It seemed to be good at the time. I was told to make sure my civilain plug wires are making good contact in the cap. The mil 24VDC cap's conductor contacts are only at the base of the holes. I will address this this Saturday to make sure my spark is adequate.
Well I went back out this evening to examine the mechanical timing after searching through old post here I discoverd about the #6 cylinder access pipe plug. My valve covers are off. I pulled this plug and used a wire for a piston gage. Here are the results:
With number 6 finishing its exhaust stroke the rotor is a #6 firing position. So am I out again on the oil pump timing? Should it not be at #1 cylinder as six completes the exhaust stroke? #1 power stroke is #6's intake? Thats as far as I went tonight. Must avoid burnout

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:23 am

I've re-read your first post, and I retract my observation that your engine timing (vice ignition timing) is correctly set up. Let me see if I have the chronology correct:

1. You have it set up, and it runs.
2. It didn't start the second time, so you pulled the pump and set it 180° out.
3. Doesn't run at all, and the rotor is pointing opposite of where it should be.

I don't think you should have reset the pump. It did run, just not on the second start attempt. If the pump is 180° out, I really doubt this thing would run at all. You were likely just a little out on the timing i.e. you could have adjusted the distributor enough to get it to fire. With the two adjustments on the distro, you can get quite a bit of throw out of it.

With number 6 finishing its exhaust stroke the rotor is a #6 firing position. So am I out again on the oil pump timing? Should it not be at #1 cylinder as six completes the exhaust stroke? #1 power stroke is #6's intake?

I'm thinking that you may be answering your own question.

I'm going to suggest that you put the pump back where it was (same place as the last time it ran), make sure the rotor is pointing near #1 when it's TDC, and adjust the distro until the points open. I'm pretty sure it will fire, but the timing may be a little late.

Having fun yet?

Dave

HingsingM37 · Post by **HingsingM37** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:09 am

Yes, I believe you are interpreting my original post correct. I am not sure what I was saying anymore

I think I did answer my own question. I will start from scratch Saturday and let you know what happens. Keep you fingers crossed.

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:33 pm

Lifer · Post by **Lifer** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:13 pm

" X " ???

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:02 pm

Fingers crossed...

Lifer · Post by **Lifer** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:26 pm

Oh. That's a relief! I was afraid you might be getting too "friendly."

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:50 pm

Nah...three date minimum. I have my reputation to consider.

HingsingM37 · Post by **HingsingM37** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:41 am

GENTLEMEN, THE "INHERITED" GREMILN HAS BEEN EXERCISED!

Thanks Dave for the fingers crossed! And boy do I have one for the "You gotta be &^$%&^* kidding me?" file.
Lets back up a bit in the story so You can all see how this ties in...
Last year I picked up a spare 230 and a new re-man distributor from a fellow who did a V8 conversion because even with all new ignition he could never get the 230 to start. The distributor was new and all I did was put a set of points in for the sake of it and buttoned it up.
Now through this process I have been using my old distributor without a cap to ck. my oil pump timing, I would then pull it out and slide in the assembled new unit to attempt to start the engine. For over a month and a half it would not run. I was questioning my sanity as my original post states.
So yesterday I start by re-setting the oil pump with my old dist. in the block to the proper timing. Only now, I decide that I would statically time the new distributor. So for the first time in this process I am removing the cap on the new distributor while it is installed. ( Charles, I bet you know where this is going, don't shout out the answer and spoil the story

) Now I have not cranked her so we are still at TDC #1.
I pull the cap off and to my amazement the rotor in the new distributor is not at 7 o'clock, but at @ the 12 o'clock position? What the &^*#? I say! I remove the dist. and put it on the bench. Comparing it to my old distributor I can see the shaft is way off from where it should be. The flat spot for the rotor on the breaker point cam is not even close. I proceed to remove the breaker plate and what do you think I find? This re-man distributor was not assembled correctly, the point cam was out of sync and not even engaged in the flyweights! It was sitting between the two flyweights! I took some time to dance around the garage after finally discovering my issue

I corrected the the problem, slipped in the distributor, cranked her for about 5 seconds and she fired right up

When it was all said and done all I could do was laugh. I was happy that it was nothing I did other than to assume a "re-man" part bought was correct

. I would have never thought of checking for proper assembly of a distributor ? I had simply inherited the gremlin from the fellow who swapped an engine because he could not get his to run with this bogus part! What an adventure. Thats about 25 hours of my life I'll never get back

DaveO · Post by **DaveO** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:28 am

Good show! I don't know how many times "assuming" has bitten me in the butt.

Dang! Now that I think of it, I might have gotten a good deal on a B1 if you hadn't solved it.

Dave