Charles Talbert, Question on bearing preload of 100 FT LBS.?

[Nickathome]

Charles;

I was able to work on one of me wheels today and got the hub off, repacked the bearings, replaced the seal(I had some trouble getting the seal to seat properyly but it seated up after I installed the hub.

I performed the inital inspection of the bearings and they look brand new. I repacked and then tightened the bearing nuts to the initial 100 ft lbs, and backed off the nut 1/6 turn after trying to spin the hub. However my hub seems very tight and doesn't turn easily. I would think either I did something wrong, or the hub should be turning more freely than this. I cannot even get the hub to spin one revolution on its own. IS this normal?

[MSeriesRebuild]

Charles;

I was able to work on one of me wheels today and got the hub off, repacked the bearings, replaced the seal(I had some trouble getting the seal to seat properyly but it seated up after I installed the hub.

I performed the inital inspection of the bearings and they look brand new. I repacked and then tightened the bearing nuts to the initial 100 ft lbs, and backed off the nut 1/6 turn after trying to spin the hub. However my hub seems very tight and doesn't turn easily. I would think either I did something wrong, or the hub should be turning more freely than this. I cannot even get the hub to spin one revolution on its own. IS this normal?

No, definitely not normal. Don't understand about the seal installation problem Assuming you do have the correct replacement seals, they are held in place by a snap ring. When pressing the seal into the hub bore, press it only deep enough to clear the groove so the snap ring can be installed. Any deeper & it will interfere with the inner bearing cone causing turning resistance. Once you are certain you have all correct up to this point, proceed as follows:


Back brake shoe adjustments completely off if your brake drums are still attached to the hubs.
Install the hub onto the spindle.
Install the outer bearing cone.
Install the inner bearing nut onto the spindle threads, torque the nut to 100 ft.lbs.
Spin the hub several revolutions, (spinning will require some force as the bearings seat into a good running position.)
Retorque the nut to 100.
Spin several revolutions.
Retorque the nut to 100.
Spin several revolutions
Contine the retorque to 100 & spin procedure until the nut holds 100ft.lbs of torque after spinning several revolutions, this may take 6-8 repititions to get to this point.
When you are there, hold the hub still & back the nut off 1/6th of a turn, (the distance from 1 axle flange stud to the next.)
This is a correct bearing PRELOAD set up at this point.
Now install the lock washer, if a hole in the washer doesn't line up with & engage the bump on the nut, turn the washer over & try again, chances are it will engage this time, if not turn the inner nut the small amount that it takes to correctly engage the lock washer.
With the washer installed, thread the outer or lock nut onto the spindle threads, torque to 100 ft.lbs.
Spin the hub several revolutions & retorque to 100 just as you did the inner nut.
Continue this proceedure as before until the nut retains 100 ft. lbs. after spinning several revolutions.
Once 100 is held, the set up is complete, DO NOT BACK OFF THE OUTER NUT, the hub should spin freely in a normal fashion. (Expect some slight resistance in turning from the grease in the bearing cones, resistance created by contact of the seal lip with the spindle surface, & the slight bearing preload adjustment, these issues will prohibit a completely free spin.)
BE CERTAIN you are not experiencing any interference from a too tight brake adjustment during this procedure, this will cause the brake shoes to drag the drum & will cause an incorrect set up.
Once you are satisfied you have achieved a correct set up, you can proceed to install the hub cap (or lock-out hubs if you have them,) axle shafts in the rear.

If you have used a top quality grease & all the components are in good condition, this will go for years, my Cummins powered M37 hasn't had the hubs off in 5+ years with "0" problems. Not sure right now how many miles we've driven, but far more than the typical M37 for sure as ours is our shop runner vehicle in many (most) cases.

[Monkey Man]

Thanks Charles.....
I am going to get a socket drive machined up for my NOS hub spanner so I can weld it in place and be sure of the torque when I next do the bearings, I will do the diff swap soon so the front ones will have to come off for sure. I want to do a few mods whilst I am doing all this too, the power steering, dual circuit M/C and head repairs on the 318 are at the top of my list and I am on the lookout for a 727 short-tail tranny the winch conversion components so I had better get a little bit more done on my workshop and some partds in stock too
Take Care

Best Regards - MM

[Nickathome]

Well, I went out after typing this post (needed a break), and checked again. I still had some resistance on the bearing so I did the procedure over again, this time I backed off the inner nut just slightly more than 1/6 of a turn and it seemed to clear things up. I buttoned up the left wheel, then proceeded to the right. The right side front went without a hitch, however when I removed the hub I had a small amount of what smelled like gear oil leak out, and upon removing the bearings, there was practically no grease on them at all, it was more like an oily mess. And when I removed the nuts I did find that the inner nut had the little nub on it. I don't remember seeing a nub on either of the nuts of the left side. I may remove them tomorrow to double check.

Now, not having any kind of removal tool to get the inner bearing and seal out, I used what I had at hand, which in this case was some 2" PVC, that I alternated side to side while tapping with a rubber mallet. It worked to get the seal and bearing out. However to seat the new Seal I had to use a 4" PVC cap and tapped on that with the mallet. For both wheels the oil seal went in crooked, and I had to final seat them by alternately tapping with the PVC again. It worked but I deformed the seals slightly and did seat one a bit too far the first time so had to remove the hub and tap the bearing from the inside to get it to push the seal back up into contact with the snap ring. I used what I had as I don't have the seal drift tools. I thought this method would be foolproof as it worked great with my differential seal, but in this case it didn't. I am concerned now that the oil seals will cause problems since I deformed them a little. Not sure if that is what caused the left one to bind though. I do have an idea to make a drift that I am going to try.

As to the brakes, I had to back off the shoes on the left to get the drum off, but on the right the drum slid off easily. I had replaced the right side with new brake shoes last year. I readjusted the brakes on the left once I had it all put back together.

[MSeriesRebuild]

Well, I went out after typing this post (needed a break), and checked again. I still had some resistance on the bearing so I did the procedure over again, this time I backed off the inner nut just slightly more than 1/6 of a turn and it seemed to clear things up. I buttoned up the left wheel, then proceeded to the right. The right side front went without a hitch, however when I removed the hub I had a small amount of what smelled like gear oil leak out, and upon removing the bearings, there was practically no grease on them at all, it was more like an oily mess. And when I removed the nuts I did find that the inner nut had the little nub on it. I don't remember seeing a nub on either of the nuts of the left side. I may remove them tomorrow to double check.

Now, not having any kind of removal tool to get the inner bearing and seal out, I used what I had at hand, which in this case was some 2" PVC, that I alternated side to side while tapping with a rubber mallet. It worked to get the seal and bearing out. However to seat the new Seal I had to use a 4" PVC cap and tapped on that with the mallet. For both wheels the oil seal went in crooked, and I had to final seat them by alternately tapping with the PVC again. It worked but I deformed the seals slightly and did seat one a bit too far the first time so had to remove the hub and tap the bearing from the inside to get it to push the seal back up into contact with the snap ring. I used what I had as I don't have the seal drift tools. I thought this method would be foolproof as it worked great with my differential seal, but in this case it didn't. I am concerned now that the oil seals will cause problems since I deformed them a little. Not sure if that is what caused the left one to bind though. I do have an idea to make a drift that I am going to try.

As to the brakes, I had to back off the shoes on the left to get the drum off, but on the right the drum slid off easily. I had replaced the right side with new brake shoes last year. I readjusted the brakes on the left once I had it all put back together.

If the seals are deformed, the 1st item of concern is they aren't sealing all the way around letting contaminents in. It could also very well cause some rolling resistance if they aren't running true on the spindle & will certainly mean a short seal life if deformity hasn't already taken care of that.

On the other hand, no need for expensive seal installation tools. We have found a simple flat piece of 3/4" thick metal works the best for us. Simply apply sealant to the hub seal bore area, place the new seal centered & flat on the edge of the hub seal bore. Place the flat metal bar, size about a 3"X4" 3/4" thickness on top of the seal, strike it squarely in the center with a 2# hammer. This presses the whole seal at once greatly reducing the chances of it being pressed in cocked. Once it is pressed in flush with the hub edge, tap it on down past the snap ring groove using a large socket that fits the outer seal edge as a driver. If you don't have a large enough socket, a short length of schedule 40 steel pipe cut squarely on both ends with flat bar welded onto 1 end makes a great economical driver. Just be sure you use the correct OD pipe size to only contact the outer edge of the seal case. Applying pressure on the metal seal case to close to the rubber lip portion will easily distort & ruin the new seal. These inexpensive shop made drivers also make great bearing race drivers & will drive cups & seals more squarely than any commercially available driver I've ever used..

[Nickathome]

Charles;

Thanks for the tips on seal drivers. What I had thought of doing was to use a flange for a 1" gas pipe, with a piece of the pipe screwed and maybe als owelded in place. The flange is almost exactly the same diameter as the seal as I measured one that I have with a seal and they are almost identical in size. However your idea I think would make more sense as it would not allow the seal to go in cockeyed.

[Monkey Man]

Thanks again Charles, I had completely forgotten about this post and even that I had replied to it, THIS time I have printed it out and put it in my workshop manual...

Regards - MM

[billy]

is that something like FOUR INCH SOCKET you guys are talking about?
i suppose i can look for a steelyard and see if i can buy six inches of a big ol pipe...

[MSeriesRebuild]

is that something like FOUR INCH SOCKET you guys are talking about?
i suppose i can look for a steelyard and see if i can buy six inches of a big ol pipe...

I'm not getting a clear understanding of your question; could you be more specific?

[billy]

is that something like FOUR INCH SOCKET you guys are talking about?
i suppose i can look for a steelyard and see if i can buy six inches of a big ol pipe...

I'm not getting a clear understanding of your question; could you be more specific?

i read this part of your post
quote
Once it is pressed in flush with the hub edge, tap it on down past the snap ring groove using a large socket that fits the outer seal edge as a driver. If you don't have a large enough socket, a short length of schedule 40 steel pipe cut squarely on both ends with flat bar welded onto 1 end makes a great economical driver
unquote
and measured my seal
3.990 "
and i dont know if i have ever seen a socket that big.
i am thinking maybe i can use my old seal as a driver to tap it in just past the groove?
charles
you are a gold mine of information

[MSeriesRebuild]

is that something like FOUR INCH SOCKET you guys are talking about?
i suppose i can look for a steelyard and see if i can buy six inches of a big ol pipe...

I'm not getting a clear understanding of your question; could you be more specific?

i read this part of your post
quote
Once it is pressed in flush with the hub edge, tap it on down past the snap ring groove using a large socket that fits the outer seal edge as a driver. If you don't have a large enough socket, a short length of schedule 40 steel pipe cut squarely on both ends with flat bar welded onto 1 end makes a great economical driver
unquote
and measured my seal
3.990 "
and i dont know if i have ever seen a socket that big.
i am thinking maybe i can use my old seal as a driver to tap it in just past the groove?
charles
you are a gold mine of information

Old seal will not make a good driver, not rigid enough. The pipe idea is the cheapest, most reliable thought that hits me right now. I have used a discarded inner bearing cup, but the OD isn't a great fit for the seal; I like the pipe machined squarely on the end and for proper OD better.

[billy]

Old seal will not make a good driver, not rigid enough. The pipe idea is the cheapest, most reliable thought that hits me right now. I have used a discarded inner bearing cup, but the OD isn't a great fit for the seal; I like the pipe machined squarely on the end and for proper OD better.

off to find a steelyard i go!
hi ho
hi ho
etc

[billy]

the yard had nothing that was the right size
i went with a block of hardwood
2lb hammer
and a octagonal PVC fitting thats just the right size
getting those old seals out is an ordeal.