Home What modern engines would you choose?
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wvcharlie
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engine swap
Thanks for the offer. If I can't get this swap worked out, I may take you up on the offer. We will see how it goes and I will let you know closer to the Mid Atlantic Meet. I look forward to meeting you and seeing your M37. Your site has helped me a lot as I have worked on mine.
Charlie
64 M38A1
65 M37
68 M725
101st ABN Veteran
64 M38A1
65 M37
68 M725
101st ABN Veteran
VROD02 wrote:a big block gasser is more powerful and weights less. I have a 502 chevy I dare anyone to try to out pull me with any of the big 3 diesels.
I beg to differ...not only could a STOCK diesel out pull you, they would get almost DOUBLE the fuel mileage doing it. You would also find it hard to keep up when you're stopping at every gas station...not to mention with a simple programmer these things can be in the 500+HP and 850+TQ range, and still get 20+mpg.
I think its to each their own...I'm considering a 4BT, but they are pricey.
For the limited amount of driving it would see, I think a smaller V8 (318/360 if you wanted to keep things "dodge") would be good enough for most. I've even considered a slant 6 before (modern enough that parts are easy to find and it still looks the part).
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CREEPING DEATH
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@ Josh, why do you need 'crawl ratio'? That crap was started by no-driving college-educated california magazine writing idiots that couldn't drive and expected the vehicle to do it for them. Nichole could (and did) out-drive them in her stock M37.
Anybody seen her lately?
The 302/5.0 is a short-stroke low-torque CAR engine. It doesn't start pulling until upwards of 3,000 RPM and would be a nightmare off-road in 3 pounds of Dodge.
The T-5 was a JUNK transmission that was easily destroyed by stock 5.0 Mustangs weighing half as much, and it is not geared anywhere near properly for a truck being used off-road.
The 4.6 4V would exaggerate the 5.0 deficiencies even further, and the T-56 gearing is again far from appropriate.
As far as Diesel vs. gas, gas is going to be substantially less expensive initially, and possibly long-term. Copying the helitool/uglytruckling LA/NP-435 setup is probably about the easiest swap out there.
There *was* a guy modifying stock Dodge bellhousings to bolt to Chevy motors, but I don't remember who and haven't seen any of those trucks completed.
The 3-53N has been swapped in with good results, but the engine is rather obsolete. It is, however, exceptionally durable and inexpensive, and ties to a Spicer 3053A well and won't require a regear. I'd do this swap myself but I'm not exactly practical and I've wanted to do this since reading PoW's article in Army Motors when I was a kid.
There is supposedly still the Hercules DT 3.7, but MARS hasn't said much lately. I came VERY close to doing this in the mid-90s to build a farm truck.
The Cummins 4BT may well be the beast but they're expensive if you don't do it yourself and find a deal on a bread truck. Charles, do you sell kits or parts?
It is unrealistic to expect 70 MPH+ cruising in an M37.
It is unrealistic to expect to recoup your money for doing a swap.
It is very easy to sink a LOT of money into something that will never work properly and end up on eBay where it'll sell at a huge loss and be made fun of on the forums. Remember the white elephant!
CD
Anybody seen her lately?
Any of the choices you mentioned would be absolutely horrible, and I'll tell you why:mattveeder wrote:I know that this is not an engine swap that I have heard anyone doing on this page. But if I was going to torture an m37 with a swap it would be an ford 5.0 fi engine out of an 88 to 95 mustang. Also I would use an t5 trans. 88 to 95 mustang setups use mass air instead of speed density to calibrate. So the mod possibility is endless. Next they are so common that tou can buy all parts from summit and jegs to include swap wire harness, computer and all sensors. Lastly the t5 is tough and has overdrive. So you can do this and use the stock transfer case. If you wanted to go real far out there an 4.6 4valve mustang engine and t56 6 speed. I personally know these engines real well but they can be very difficult cause of the electronic end of the swap. But they would be way more than you would ever need for the m37.
The 302/5.0 is a short-stroke low-torque CAR engine. It doesn't start pulling until upwards of 3,000 RPM and would be a nightmare off-road in 3 pounds of Dodge.
The T-5 was a JUNK transmission that was easily destroyed by stock 5.0 Mustangs weighing half as much, and it is not geared anywhere near properly for a truck being used off-road.
The 4.6 4V would exaggerate the 5.0 deficiencies even further, and the T-56 gearing is again far from appropriate.
As far as Diesel vs. gas, gas is going to be substantially less expensive initially, and possibly long-term. Copying the helitool/uglytruckling LA/NP-435 setup is probably about the easiest swap out there.
There *was* a guy modifying stock Dodge bellhousings to bolt to Chevy motors, but I don't remember who and haven't seen any of those trucks completed.
The 3-53N has been swapped in with good results, but the engine is rather obsolete. It is, however, exceptionally durable and inexpensive, and ties to a Spicer 3053A well and won't require a regear. I'd do this swap myself but I'm not exactly practical and I've wanted to do this since reading PoW's article in Army Motors when I was a kid.
There is supposedly still the Hercules DT 3.7, but MARS hasn't said much lately. I came VERY close to doing this in the mid-90s to build a farm truck.
The Cummins 4BT may well be the beast but they're expensive if you don't do it yourself and find a deal on a bread truck. Charles, do you sell kits or parts?
It is unrealistic to expect 70 MPH+ cruising in an M37.
It is unrealistic to expect to recoup your money for doing a swap.
It is very easy to sink a LOT of money into something that will never work properly and end up on eBay where it'll sell at a huge loss and be made fun of on the forums. Remember the white elephant!
CD
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MSeriesRebuild
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I agree on the gas burner issues mentioned, especially using car engines in heavy trucks.CREEPING DEATH wrote:@ Josh, why do you need 'crawl ratio'? That crap was started by no-driving college-educated california magazine writing idiots that couldn't drive and expected the vehicle to do it for them. Nichole could (and did) out-drive them in her stock M37.
Anybody seen her lately?
Any of the choices you mentioned would be absolutely horrible, and I'll tell you why:mattveeder wrote:I know that this is not an engine swap that I have heard anyone doing on this page. But if I was going to torture an m37 with a swap it would be an ford 5.0 fi engine out of an 88 to 95 mustang. Also I would use an t5 trans. 88 to 95 mustang setups use mass air instead of speed density to calibrate. So the mod possibility is endless. Next they are so common that tou can buy all parts from summit and jegs to include swap wire harness, computer and all sensors. Lastly the t5 is tough and has overdrive. So you can do this and use the stock transfer case. If you wanted to go real far out there an 4.6 4valve mustang engine and t56 6 speed. I personally know these engines real well but they can be very difficult cause of the electronic end of the swap. But they would be way more than you would ever need for the m37.
The 302/5.0 is a short-stroke low-torque CAR engine. It doesn't start pulling until upwards of 3,000 RPM and would be a nightmare off-road in 3 pounds of Dodge.
The T-5 was a JUNK transmission that was easily destroyed by stock 5.0 Mustangs weighing half as much, and it is not geared anywhere near properly for a truck being used off-road.
The 4.6 4V would exaggerate the 5.0 deficiencies even further, and the T-56 gearing is again far from appropriate.
As far as Diesel vs. gas, gas is going to be substantially less expensive initially, and possibly long-term. Copying the helitool/uglytruckling LA/NP-435 setup is probably about the easiest swap out there.
There *was* a guy modifying stock Dodge bellhousings to bolt to Chevy motors, but I don't remember who and haven't seen any of those trucks completed.
The 3-53N has been swapped in with good results, but the engine is rather obsolete. It is, however, exceptionally durable and inexpensive, and ties to a Spicer 3053A well and won't require a regear. I'd do this swap myself but I'm not exactly practical and I've wanted to do this since reading PoW's article in Army Motors when I was a kid.
There is supposedly still the Hercules DT 3.7, but MARS hasn't said much lately. I came VERY close to doing this in the mid-90s to build a farm truck.
The Cummins 4BT may well be the beast but they're expensive if you don't do it yourself and find a deal on a bread truck. Charles, do you sell kits or parts?
It is unrealistic to expect 70 MPH+ cruising in an M37.
It is unrealistic to expect to recoup your money for doing a swap.
It is very easy to sink a LOT of money into something that will never work properly and end up on eBay where it'll sell at a huge loss and be made fun of on the forums. Remember the white elephant!
CD
I don't care for the Detroit engine swap, 3-53N. A good engine, however a little small, LOUD, & although some refuse to believe this; never reaches it potential until it's tached out.
I have no idea what's happened to MARS, I do know Paul is now up in years & has had some health problems. These may be issues. I'm not a fan of the Hercules set up, uses adapter plates which are huge, heavy, & never machined correctly, I know, I used to install them in the early years with lots of issues with every one I might add. I have no use for a set up that claims to be a drop in package deal, then proves to be everything but that.
Cummins is my choice, I would say that whether or not I installed them, it's simply the truth. We will be happy to install one for you if you would like to send your truck to us. We don't offer our set up in kit form, found out years ago that folks will not follow detailed installation instruction. When issues came up as a result, then that was our fault, we stopped selling kits for this reason.
70+MPH unrealistic, not at all with our set up. If you can't achieve that, you aren't doing something right.
Charles Talbert
www.mseriesrebuild.com
www.mseriesrebuild.com
for once, Charles and I agree on something... lol.
The 3-53 sucks. Especially naturally aspirated. They're only good if you drive them like you're trying to break them. They're noisy, inefficient, pollute a ton (In NOT a treehugger, but, if I can put something in that doesnt wreck the environment and still gets me what I want, I'll do it), and last, but certainly not least HEAVY.
The 4 BT is hands down probably the best engine for this truck.
I agree, small displacement, high reving v8's with thin passenger car blocks are also not the way to go.
Ive done 90 mph in my truck. Was it smart? no. Was it safe?
(without a rollbar), no. did I do it more then once? no. but, for 3 miles, I held her at 5700 RPM, and it was surprisingly relaxed at 90 MPH. there is no reason you can't do 70 in an M, you just have to be smart about it. Have a real rollbar, have good brakes, have good tires, and good shocks, and you'll be fine.
I fully intend to drive mine to work when its done, and that involves 3 miles on the interstate.
as far as "You dont need crawl ratio" if thats the case, then why bother with differentials and transmissions, and granny gears, they're just "crawl ratios" right?
And what does having a 'college educated' degree have to do with someone's ability to drive?
I fully realize that I'm probably going to piss alot of you off putting a twin turbo v8 in my truck, and making it all wheel drive, and giving it massive "crawl ratio", and if so, Im sorry, but, there are plenty of drop dead gorgeous restorations out there, the latest knatrass's excellent example, and, its my truck, I can do what I want.
I remember being told 9 years ago that a v8 swap couldnt be done; and closed minded thinking pisses me off. Anything can be done.
The 3-53 sucks. Especially naturally aspirated. They're only good if you drive them like you're trying to break them. They're noisy, inefficient, pollute a ton (In NOT a treehugger, but, if I can put something in that doesnt wreck the environment and still gets me what I want, I'll do it), and last, but certainly not least HEAVY.
The 4 BT is hands down probably the best engine for this truck.
I agree, small displacement, high reving v8's with thin passenger car blocks are also not the way to go.
Ive done 90 mph in my truck. Was it smart? no. Was it safe?
(without a rollbar), no. did I do it more then once? no. but, for 3 miles, I held her at 5700 RPM, and it was surprisingly relaxed at 90 MPH. there is no reason you can't do 70 in an M, you just have to be smart about it. Have a real rollbar, have good brakes, have good tires, and good shocks, and you'll be fine.
I fully intend to drive mine to work when its done, and that involves 3 miles on the interstate.
as far as "You dont need crawl ratio" if thats the case, then why bother with differentials and transmissions, and granny gears, they're just "crawl ratios" right?
And what does having a 'college educated' degree have to do with someone's ability to drive?
I fully realize that I'm probably going to piss alot of you off putting a twin turbo v8 in my truck, and making it all wheel drive, and giving it massive "crawl ratio", and if so, Im sorry, but, there are plenty of drop dead gorgeous restorations out there, the latest knatrass's excellent example, and, its my truck, I can do what I want.
I remember being told 9 years ago that a v8 swap couldnt be done; and closed minded thinking pisses me off. Anything can be done.
In my view there are multiple types of restorations...as you said, it is YOUR truck! Point is, not everyone has the same endpoint use.
I'm building a toy, I'll keep it nice, but it will get aftermarket wiring, aftermarket wheels, things to make it safer on the road (seatbelts, upgraded brakes), and possibly another engine...it will look the part, and most people probably won't be the wiser to the modifications, but it won't be a period-specific truck by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm really thinking about a slant 6/NP435 combination from a dodge truck...to keep the look. If it comes to that...I was looking and rebuilding that 230 is going to run around $800 just for parts...
I'm building a toy, I'll keep it nice, but it will get aftermarket wiring, aftermarket wheels, things to make it safer on the road (seatbelts, upgraded brakes), and possibly another engine...it will look the part, and most people probably won't be the wiser to the modifications, but it won't be a period-specific truck by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm really thinking about a slant 6/NP435 combination from a dodge truck...to keep the look. If it comes to that...I was looking and rebuilding that 230 is going to run around $800 just for parts...
and then, you have to keep that 230 running, and, if you rev it past 2400 RPM, that gets harder and harder to do....
for the $800, I can get a good used fuel injected 360...
I know the 230 has its place, and Im always in awe of perfect restorations, but, for me, Its just not worth it to keep it original. Id rather not own the truck then deal with the original drivelines fragility (Is that a word?)
for the $800, I can get a good used fuel injected 360...
I know the 230 has its place, and Im always in awe of perfect restorations, but, for me, Its just not worth it to keep it original. Id rather not own the truck then deal with the original drivelines fragility (Is that a word?)
Yep, Josh..."fragility" is a word. Take it from me, a college educated English major!
Regarding your comment that "anything can be done," I wholeheartedly agree. With enough time, effort, engineering skill, equipment, and (most importantly) MONEY, a guy can put any engine into any vehicle. Ever see a Chrysler hemi in a VW bug? It's been done! Here's another idea that might be "workable" under the criteria I just listed. How about stuffing a Rolls-Royce Merlin from a P-51 Mustang into an M-series vehicle? Yeah, you'd have to stretch the frame, modify the suspension/steering components, rework the front end sheet metal, but it could be "done."
Regarding your comment that "anything can be done," I wholeheartedly agree. With enough time, effort, engineering skill, equipment, and (most importantly) MONEY, a guy can put any engine into any vehicle. Ever see a Chrysler hemi in a VW bug? It's been done! Here's another idea that might be "workable" under the criteria I just listed. How about stuffing a Rolls-Royce Merlin from a P-51 Mustang into an M-series vehicle? Yeah, you'd have to stretch the frame, modify the suspension/steering components, rework the front end sheet metal, but it could be "done."
"PER ARDUA AD ITER"
So now I discover I do an unrealistic 100 highway miles commute every day to work at 75Mph average, who would have think!!CREEPING DEATH wrote: It is unrealistic to expect 70 MPH+ cruising in an M37.
It is unrealistic to expect to recoup your money for doing a swap.
CD
Got a photo ticket doing 79 to prove it...
And I unrealisticly sold last year my M43 for twice the money invested in the truck, powerpack and import to Argentina expenses to my unrealistic friend. (Maybe he paid me with unrealistic monopoly dollars)
But then you know I live in an unrealistic country. Maybe that's the reason.
I got to agree on the mustang engines/trannies as not job rated for a heavy truck though.
Juan Castro
Buenos Aires
Argentina
Buenos Aires
Argentina
Re: What modern engines would you choose?
Yeah, Yeah . . . I know, I'm five years late to this party. But I like this topic.
I'll come out in defense of the Ford Windsor engines, (289, 302, 351) yes, I know they made a 221 255 & 260 as well. Pretty much indestructible in my experience in drag racing and off road. The high winding nature isn't really and issue with the stock 5:83 gears on our trucks. Actually it's a blessing.
My 241 hemi has a very similar torque/HP curve to these V8's and It makes for a very usable truck. Much better for all around use than my stock 230 powered truck. The 241 was my daily driver for a couple of years and that hemi took me through the toughest off road treks and would still run with traffic on the hwy. I wouldn't run it on long trips at those speeds, but that is due to drive train heat and stress, not engine issues. it was actually quite happy tooling along at 3500+ rpms. I should note, I also ran 1100-16's
The SBF is the most light weight and dimensionaly compact of all the big three's V8's, has excellent after-market support (the Jeep and Bronco guys can match it to any transmission choice). I think a EFI 5.0/NP435 would be an excellent choice for someone who wanted great performance on a budget.
T5 . . . . ? Not a good choice for any truck.
That said, I'm in the midst of converting back to six cylinders. Three modern engines made the cut, (If you can call them modern, they're all out of production) Ford 300 six EFI, Jeep 4.0 EFI and GM Vortec 4.2. No V6's listed because I've never met one that I liked. . . . Well, maybe the old GMC 60deg truck V6.
Ended up going wit the 4.2, mainly cause I like pain. I'll keep you posted.
I'll come out in defense of the Ford Windsor engines, (289, 302, 351) yes, I know they made a 221 255 & 260 as well. Pretty much indestructible in my experience in drag racing and off road. The high winding nature isn't really and issue with the stock 5:83 gears on our trucks. Actually it's a blessing.
My 241 hemi has a very similar torque/HP curve to these V8's and It makes for a very usable truck. Much better for all around use than my stock 230 powered truck. The 241 was my daily driver for a couple of years and that hemi took me through the toughest off road treks and would still run with traffic on the hwy. I wouldn't run it on long trips at those speeds, but that is due to drive train heat and stress, not engine issues. it was actually quite happy tooling along at 3500+ rpms. I should note, I also ran 1100-16's
The SBF is the most light weight and dimensionaly compact of all the big three's V8's, has excellent after-market support (the Jeep and Bronco guys can match it to any transmission choice). I think a EFI 5.0/NP435 would be an excellent choice for someone who wanted great performance on a budget.
T5 . . . . ? Not a good choice for any truck.
That said, I'm in the midst of converting back to six cylinders. Three modern engines made the cut, (If you can call them modern, they're all out of production) Ford 300 six EFI, Jeep 4.0 EFI and GM Vortec 4.2. No V6's listed because I've never met one that I liked. . . . Well, maybe the old GMC 60deg truck V6.
Ended up going wit the 4.2, mainly cause I like pain. I'll keep you posted.
19E/K
63B
93B
63B
93B
Re: What modern engines would you choose?
I like this topic too. Over the years, I've had the stock engine, a slant 6, a 318, and (since the late 1960's) a big block Chevy in my 37. Far and away, I prefer the bb chevy mated to an SM 465 transmission and the stock transfer case with stock 5.83 ring and pinion. PTO shaft still fits the stock location. Except for the dual exhausts, truck still looks stock. Fastest I've ever run it is 111 mph (not gonna do that again -- it's not fun above 80, and I don't like the sound of the engine at that speed). I'm due for another engine overhaul and am going to use a 502 Chevy this time.
I like the Windsors too, but have never installed one in a 37.
I like the Windsors too, but have never installed one in a 37.
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jimmy_stikx
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Re: What modern engines would you choose?
Yeah, I've been thinking of a Ford 300, and backing it with a 465/205 combo and running it to a dana 60 in the rear and 44F.
Diesel would be nice, but I don't have the money for that currently.
Diesel would be nice, but I don't have the money for that currently.
Re: What modern engines would you choose?
111 MPH!!! Scary!!
I don't know how fast I've pushed mine. I'm guessing about 90 MPH as the hemi was screaming, (so was the transfer case). I'm guessing that I was pushing 5K rpms. Backed off, and never did that again.
Ford 300 is a great engine... Good torque & can make decent hp (250 -300) with basic hot-rodding. Best of all, cheap and indestructible! Probably the best I-6 ever to come out of Detroit. It's a tight fit in an M-37, but will fit. IIRC, you can use the accessory, pulleys and belts out of an Econoline Van to get the shortest overall length.
Good luck!
I don't know how fast I've pushed mine. I'm guessing about 90 MPH as the hemi was screaming, (so was the transfer case). I'm guessing that I was pushing 5K rpms. Backed off, and never did that again.
Ford 300 is a great engine... Good torque & can make decent hp (250 -300) with basic hot-rodding. Best of all, cheap and indestructible! Probably the best I-6 ever to come out of Detroit. It's a tight fit in an M-37, but will fit. IIRC, you can use the accessory, pulleys and belts out of an Econoline Van to get the shortest overall length.
Good luck!
19E/K
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93B
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93B
Re: What modern engines would you choose?
I would really like to see a Jeep 4.0 put into one of these things... I've been going back and forth on what to put in mine, and a Jeep 4.0 might be a fun unique swap. I'm also entertaining the Merc I-6's to do something different. Will be a tight squeeze, but I think the 6 cylinders will be a lot nicer than 4 and the 4bt's are wicked hard to find...