Actually Charles it's all in your head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
And that in itself is pathetic. I can offer some other statistics as well. Try to imagine how many members of this web site won't post here because they are intimidated by down the nose talking big heads. Only us old bull headed folks will tackle the ridiculous discourse it takes and the abuse that comes with disagreeing with you. For one who has said again and again you have no desire to argue and no time to make long winded posts it certainly looks like you have been wrong at least twice on this board!
M37UK wrote:"In these forums normally less than 20% of the members are experienced mechanics"
Damn, my cover's blown .......................
BAHAHAHAHA!!! MINE TOO!!!
CHARLES, CUZ, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO ARGUE TO SUCH EXTREMES? I WOULD ASSUME THAT IN THIS FORUM WE MOSTLY TRY TO HELP EACH OTHER, WHICHEVER WAY WE CAN. YES, CUZ YOU ARE RIGHT, EVEN THE GREEK VERSION OF THE MANUAL STATES 2 ATDC. YES CHARLES, YOU ARE RIGHT, EVERY MAINTENANCE PERSON I ASKED IN THE GREEK ARMY SAID THAT THE MANUAL IS WRONG. NO ENGINE WILL OPERATE PROPERLY WITH ATDC FIRING. BUT I GUESS THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT MAY INFLUENCE THIS, AND HENCE NO DISTRIBUTOR MOUNTS IN A SOLID BASE ON ANY ENGINE, RATHER IT PIVOTS FOR FINE TUNING. AND THEN, SO WHAT? I AM NO MECHANIC AND I KNOW NO STATISTICS OTHER THAN THERE ARE ONLY 693 TRUCKS REGISTERED HERE, AND YOU TWO ARE VERY VALUABLE CHARACTERS IN THIS FORUM. THIS PROVES BY THE NUMBER OF POSTS YOU HAVE, AND THAT NEITHER OF YOU TALKS BS. I REALLY THINK THAT THERE IS NO POINT IN ARGUING OVER SIMPLE THINGS LIKE THIS. WHOEVER OF US MAY OFFER THEIR OPINION AND HELP, WE SHOULD DO SO, AND LET THE PERSON THAT ASKED THE QUESTION TO DECIDE WHICH PATH TO TAKE. SO, JUST LET IT BE. JUST MY TWO CENTS
LIFE IS SHORT AND ENDS UNEXPECTEDLY. MAKE EVERY MOMENT WORTH REMEMBERING.
I believe this will sound old school but when I set the timing on my engine, I rough timed it and got the light out and instead of really setting it up per the book I listened to the engine and how it was running. You can hear the RPM change so I set it up where it seemed the smoothest. In this issue, 4 deg BTDC is where its set at.
This comming from a 17 yr licensed aircraft mechanic but have worked on airplanes since I was 12. Been a MV owner since 1995........what percentage do I fall in??
Green Mountain Military Vehicle Club Army Transportation Association Vietnam
I think I made the common sense part clear in my post above:
I set 2 ATDC static and check her with the timing light and a vacuum gage and take it where it does best. There can always be a better setting but I don't call the initial factory spec settings wrong simply because I found something that works better. If I find something that works better I'll pass it along as an aside.
I also come to the table with 44 years in aircraft maintenance for a living and building my own MV's since 1970. But I don't think that qualifies me to talk down my nose at anyone or insult anyone on these boards.
Cuz, sensible disagreement is one thing that is always welcome, while pushing a point that makes no sense is quite another. All this does is cause confusion for a person who is genuinely seeking valid info. I try to keep this in mind when attempting to answer a question here. Then someone post something that isn't even relevant or sensible like AFTER TDC timing in this particular case. What I don't understand about that is this; what difference does it make whether the manual says -2 or -6? Neither will produce a decent performing engine. I must admit also that I have never seen -6 in a manual, understand that I'm not saying it isn't in 1 that you have, just that I have not seen it. Why does that even need to come into the conversation? If these settings are used by someone seeking proper info, they will learn quickly either it was bad info or worse yet think they have something else wrong. I have seen people spent significant $$ thinking they had other issues when incorrect timing was the only problem. I don't understand why a legitimate question needs to turn into a non intelligent discussion. Both of us know that - anything timing settings are not correct. I don't wish to post any incorrect info here to cause anyone further frustrating issues. Just because -2 is printed in the book, what is printed there will not help anyone achieve a decent performing engine. I figure the person who ask the original question was seeking info that would be valid to them. In this case the only thing valid they can get from the book spec is that it's wrong. Now who has attempted to share BENEFICIAL info in a positive way? Who tried to turn this thread into a dog and pony show? The first time you posted in the thread, you posted -2 degrees as correct info from the manual. It appeared as you were correcting Sotven who said he thought it was +2. No I don't think you are stupid concerning your mechanical ability; my personal opinion is that you do this stuff with the intent of creating a stir, you've made that obvious too many times.
I get calls daily from folks seeking info concerning trucks, some introduce themselves saying they are so and so from the forums. Many of these point blank tell me they are calling by phone because they didn't wish to post their question on the forums for various reasons. More often than not, that reason is because they seek a simple straight forward answer instead of what this thread has turned into. I don't mind people calling at all, I'm happy to offer help anytime I can. But at the same time I think it is shameful that some feel they can't get a valid response without it turning into something more; and it also prevents that question being asked on here where many who read could also receive valid info concerning similar issues.
Call it whatever you will, I only stated an opinion as well.
Anyone with an open mind can review this post and see immediately that you took the first step away from the topic and towards an argument with a direct personal attack.
by MSeriesRebuild » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:05 am
Not trying to be a God Cuz, nor a book only guy that seems to be your style in all areas.
sensible disagreement is one thing that is always welcome, while pushing a point that makes no sense is quite another
What your last post says is that you will determine what is acceptable (sensible) material to post here and there is to be no further discussion that does not agree with your position. That might work in some countries but not here.
I must admit also that I have never seen -6 in a manual, understand that I'm not saying it isn't in 1 that you have, just that I have not seen it. Why does that even need to come into the conversation?
Here again you insist on regulating what is allowed in a discussion.
Now who has attempted to share BENEFICIAL info in a positive way? Who tried to turn this thread into a dog and pony show? The first time you posted in the thread, you posted -2 degrees as correct info from the manual. It appeared as you were correcting Sotven who said he thought it was +2.
Here again you take a dictatorial approach to information. As for the simple short 2ATDC reply I posted there was a post immediately preceding mine that asked specifically what the published spec was. The moderator will know what happened to that post and what other edits occurred above my post.
The
dog and pony show
you refer to is the result of your leaving the normal discussion arena and turning to dictating what you are willing to accept as reasonable disagreement.
I said what I felt was necessary to bring out the only point I was trying to make, since that was my only intent with posting in the beginning, whatever you say from this point on is just fine by me.
To continue the timing issue discussion, the factory engineers had a very good reason for publishing specified operating parameters.
1-Warranty
2-Liability
3-Longevity
4-Reliability
Very few of us have been able to purchase a factory new vehicle that came exactly the way we wanted it. Hence we all look at performance improvements, appearance improvements, reliability improvements and so on.
Factory published timing specs are published based on a compromise that meets the needs or intent of the 4 items listed above. A deviation in either direction can have good results or could have detrimental effects. But we all experiment. So how far do we go with our deviation? Well we can become the lab rats and make our own guesses and experiment or we can do what a lot of folks do and ask for some ideas from those who have been down the trail before us.
In all likelihood the Mopar 2 deg figure came as a factory compromise to the above 4 elements. It is a starting point and when you understand why the spec is there you can make a better decision on what modified spec you will choose to employ. I can tell you that my M37 runs fine at 4 BTDC but that is my truck and I arrived at that number by experimentation. Many times increases and decreases that are a little too far can result in higher operating temps, more difficult engine starter cranking or detonation issues. The point at which experimental changes cross these boundries can be determined if you are careful with your testing. No two vehicles are identicle. Once you find what works for you and you then in time determine it produced no detrimental effects you have successfully employed the proper technique for modifying published specs.
Bottom line, it's your truck and your wallet. Take all advice into consideration and deliberate and test carefully before you commit to a new number.
cuz wrote:I think I made the common sense part clear in my post above:
I set 2 ATDC static and check her with the timing light and a vacuum gage and take it where it does best. There can always be a better setting but I don't call the initial factory spec settings wrong simply because I found something that works better. If I find something that works better I'll pass it along as an aside.
I also come to the table with 44 years in aircraft maintenance for a living and building my own MV's since 1970. But I don't think that qualifies me to talk down my nose at anyone or insult anyone on these boards.
Dam wes your showing your age .....I actually hope not to be in Aircraft maint for a living for 44 yrs............I am hoping I can go back to doing it for fun!! There once was a time when I did that!!
Well I didn't bother to post in this thread to discuss what year Uncle Joe's Aunt Susie's sister inlaw's late 4th cousin on her great grandma's side passed away over in the Frog Pond Township down yonder at the fork of Croaker Creek and Branch Run at the South West end just before reaching the eastern side of Tadpole Hole.
I just came to share a valid answer to a straight forward question; which was that 4* before TDC was the optimum timing set on a 230 engine. Even though some had to go around the world in order to cross the street; I'm glad to see we have all finally arrived at the SAME obviously correct destination.
[quote="MSeriesRebuild"]Well I didn't bother to post in this thread to discuss what year Uncle Joe's Aunt Susie's sister inlaw's late 4th cousin on her great grandma's side passed away over in the Frog Pond Township down yonder at the fork of Croaker Creek and Branch Run at the South West end just before reaching the eastern side of Tadpole Hole.
Wow, Charlie , sorry for your loss. Seems as thuogh you have a close family!!
Come on Guys, differences of opinion and the occasional dig are fine, if it goes beyond that then show your true character and just let it go.....OR the bad Moderator will do unspeakable things to any posts that are problematic!!
On that note, I set the timing on my M37's 318 V8 with a vacuum guage and I am happy with the results plus I use it for other diagnostic purposes also, I don't know why but these days the older style tools have been passed over in favour of "Tech Toys", don't get me wrong, newer vehicles need computers to talk to the ecm and make sense of it all but basics are basics regardless of what is driving the timing, fuel and ignition feed.
I have in my list of toys for working on my truck an AC Delco plug doctor, the matching coil and insulation tester, combination vacuum/fuel pressure guage, a good multimeter and a box of good quality mechanical tools.
MSeriesRebuild wrote:Well I didn't bother to post in this thread to discuss what year Uncle Joe's Aunt Susie's sister inlaw's late 4th cousin on her great grandma's side passed away over in the Frog Pond Township down yonder at the fork of Croaker Creek and Branch Run at the South West end just before reaching the eastern side of Tadpole Hole.
Wow, Charlie , sorry for your loss. Seems as thuogh you have a close family!!
I appreciate your condolence DJ, it was kind of you to mention it; and yes I'm glad to be able to say that we do have a very close immediate and extended family.
Frog Pond Township as you may have imagined is sort of off the beaten path for folks who don't live close around. Most foreigner's coming in just head down 205 from Red Cross to Big Lick, then take a left across Liberty Hill, then a right down to Frog Pond; but never fails there's always 1 or 2 that get lost out here in the country and wind up going all the way around the County before they make their way to the Church down at Tadpole Hole; as it has always been the place of worship, family reunions, weddings, and burials in the church family grave yard when life on earth is over. The Church was built on the banks of Tadpole Hole over 100 years ago, which also doubles as the Church's baptism pool. I've heard many different stories told over the years of where all folks who lived off went while making their way down to the Church. After I read The New Adventures of Correct 230 Engine Timing; I thought it was just ironic how much these 2 situations had in common.
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