Antique GASOLINE engines and modern oils.(NOT DIESEL ENGINE)

cuz · Post by **cuz** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:31 am

Captnism said:
Quote:
On a side note...has anyone here discussed the issues of newer oils and flat tappet engines?

I moved this thread here so it wouldn't get buried in the fuel pump thread or the DIESEL ENGINE thread.

We should get several replies and ideas on this.

I would like to tee off with one important difference is not the oil but the engine design. Modern engines are designed with much tighter clearances and operate at much higher temperatures. These engines love the multi-grades semi-synthetics and the high dollar full synthetics. Older engine have wider clearances and lower operating temps. These engines still like modern oils but prefer the single weight detergent oils that can keep the clearances full properly suspending the friction surfaces. This can include the multi-weights when the season is right for them but the higher rated multi-weights do best like 20w40 and etc.

Our 230's have a partial flow filter system and tons of sulphur, acids and water wasted in the combustion chamber and dumped into the oil. The filter is a particulate filter and most of the acids, sulpher and water stay right in the oil. Modern gas engines with their computerized ignition, engine controls and smog equipment leave barely any deposits in the oil.

I'll stir the pot a little further. The full synthetics like Mobil one are never on my shopping list. I feel it is more important to change oil often and at least by calender time of 3 to 6 months to get the trash out that the combustion process in our antique (read not so clean burning) engines leaves behind then pay too much money for a full synthetic that offers little if any increased lubricating quality and leave it in the engine for a year or two just because the can says I can.

Ok, now all the Gurus can pop in!
_________________
Wes K

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:17 pm

One Caveat here...

Mobil 1 is no longer a full synthetic. Its a group 3 Hydro, or sometimes called hypercracked mineral oil base. Same as Castrol syntec (the stuff made here. The German made stuff is the real deal).

Mobil 1 used to be a full group 4 true synthetic, but, they sued Castrol for calling tehir hypercracked group 3 base oil a synthetic, and lost, as technically, a hypercracked group 3 meets the requirements of being a synthetic (partical size and shape) even though it's not a true synthetic. As such, Mobil downgraded from a group 4 base, to a group 3, but didnt downgrade their price!

If you want a true grup 4 (requirement to be a group 4 is PAO content), check out amsoil, redline, royal purple, or Motul. Motul also has a group 5 with double esters in it... basically molecular ball bearings! ITs pricey though, at 11-14 bucks a quart!!!!

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:24 pm

oh, one other thing. Mobil 1 also has a very strange additive package compared to most other oils, and, particularily in the high performance turbo 4 cylinder crowd (read: Japanese pocket rockets) There have been cases of extreme bottom end bearing wear, where the copper and bronze in the bearings is stripped or attacked by the oil at higher mileage intervals. I'm not sure of the composition of the 230's bearings, but, it's enough to make me stay far, far away from the stuff.

M-Thrax · Post by **M-Thrax** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:02 am

Josh great info thanks

Sal · Post by **Sal** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:36 am

I have a question, What do you think of adding a oil additive like ZDD Plus to the motor oil ?

ron hardin · Post by **ron hardin** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:27 am

Some of the Packard collectors/mechanics recommend using diesel engine oil on the old straight 8's and 6's.

SOTVEN · Post by **SOTVEN** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:44 am

I DO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT OILS, ESPECIALLY LATELY THAT THE CHEMICALS INDUSTRY SEEMS TO BE COMING UP WITH A NEW FORMULA EVERY MONTH. SO MY APPROACH IS TO STICK TO THE LUBRICANT SPECS THAT THE MANUFACTURER OF THE ENGINE SUGGESTED, PICK A KNOWN BRAND OF OIL WITH THOSE SPECS, AND CHANGE THE OIL AND THE REST OF THE LUBRICANTS OFTEN WITHIN THE YEAR/MILES, SO TO KEEP THEM AS CLEAN AS POSSIBE. I HAVE DONE SO WITH EVERY VEHICLE OR MACHINE THAT I OWNED OR OPERATED, AND SO FAR I HAD GREAT SERVICE OUT OF THEM. OH, ALSO I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN FILTER CHANGE EVERY TIME I CHANGE THE OIL. SOME PEOPLE JUST CHANGE THE OIL AND RETAIN THE FILTER FOR AN ADDITIONAL INTERVAL. THIS PRACTICE HOWEVER, AS A FRIEND OF MINE HAD SAID, IS LIKE TAKING A SHOWER AND THEN WEARING THE SAME DIRTY UNDERWEAR AGAIN. JUST MY TWO CENTS

WarrenD · Post by **WarrenD** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:55 am

There was a thread over on Steel Soldiers about engine oils (just can't find it right now). As I recall, Shell Rotella seemed to be the oil of choice, not only for diesels but for older gas engines. That was in the past, as I recall someone saying that Rotella changed their additives with either new DEP regs or a new SAE grading and the new stuff wasn't good for older engines. If anyone here recalls that info, please correct me or elaborate.
It might make sense to see what the antique auto crowd is using as I would imagine that engine technologies and materials are similar. If castor oil would work, I know that it is still available, albeit in 55 gallon drums!
Many years ago fresh out of college I worked for NJ DOT. They had early 70's Plymouths in their fleet with the straight 6. Most of them had several hundred thousand miles on them by the late 70's and few if any had needed any serious engine repairs. Their maintenance schedule was simple, oil and filter change every 3 months. Mileage didn't matter, if the car had 4,000 miles in that time, it must have been mostly highway miles and if the car only had a few hundred miles it was mostly city or idled alot. It seems the key was to change the oil regularly and that seems like the wisest thing you can do.

steved · Post by **steved** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:46 am

From what I gathered, modern gasoline-rated oils (the "S" or spark oils) are designed more for roller tappets and overhead cams. They have stripped a lot of the antiwear additives, required for flat tappets, to meet emissions and protect the catalytic converter (even though the oil is supposedly backwards compatible).

Diesel oils (the "C" or compression oils), on the other hand, still have a good amount of these antiwear additives and do protect flat tappets better. Most diesels still utilize a flat tappet design. I have done Used Oil Analysis of extended runs on Rotella 15w40 (20k miles plus) with the results indicating it was fine for continued use.

I know a friend lost a newly rebuilt (muscle car) V8, because the cam lobes were worn off during break in...he now runs Rotella 5w40 synthetic. I also know there was a string of diesel failures when the oil changed from CI-4+ to CJ-4, however I have put a lot of miles (over 100k) on Rotella CJ-4 without problems.

If I had an older flat tappet, I would run either 5w40 or 15w40 Rotella because I have had good results on Rotella. I feel any quality diesel oil would probably protect better in an older gas engine than a modern gasoline-rated oil (as long as its dual rated for "S" and "C"). If I had decided to keep my M37, I would have ran Rotella.

CREEPING DEATH · Post by **CREEPING DEATH** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:17 pm

Cx-2 is best, the Cx-4 has the anti-wear additives taken out like the S series due to late model diesels having catalytic converters. The -2 oils are for Detroits and such, non-emissions, high detergent high dispersant high anti-wear additive.

CD

steved · Post by **steved** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:20 pm

I have UOAs that show the CJ-4 does have good antiwear, even today.

And according to most of what I read indicates CI-4+ was about the best oil ever developed. The CJ-4 was the compromise for emissions, but I have seen no difference in UOAs.

Lifer · Post by **Lifer** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:17 pm

steved wrote:I know a friend lost a newly rebuilt (muscle car) V8, because the cam lobes were worn off during break in...he now runs Rotella 5w40 synthetic.

I've rebuilt quite a few small-block Chevy and Ford engines and never seen that happen. How in the he!! can you wear the lobes off a cam during break-in????

steved · Post by **steved** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:25 pm

Lifer wrote:
steved wrote:I know a friend lost a newly rebuilt (muscle car) V8, because the cam lobes were worn off during break in...he now runs Rotella 5w40 synthetic.
I've rebuilt quite a few small-block Chevy and Ford engines and never seen that happen. How in the he!! can you wear the lobes off a cam during break-in????

Not sure, but it was a Chevy big block in his 69 Camaro...it was professionally rebuilt by a reputable shop, it ran great for the first five minutes and got progressively worse as the break-in progressed. Upon teardown, the cam lobs were found worn.

Lifer · Post by **Lifer** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:18 pm

The only way I can see it happening would be if the cam was bad (i.e. not hardened) when it left the factory. If that's the case, the factory should foot the bill for the teardown and repair in addition to providing a good cam at no expense to your friend.

Bad parts do occasionally come from the manufacturer. I once rebuilt a Mitsubishi 4-banger for a neighbor, using new parts from the dealership, only to have the new crankshaft shear between the #2 and #3 cylinders after only 6 miles when his wife left to go grocery shopping. Turned out to be an internal flaw in the crank. There was a huge air bubble in the casting and it had not been detected. My diagnosis was confirmed by a Misubishi rep and the company replaced the entire engine with a brand new one. Their techs even did the work!

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:46 pm

Lifer, a burr in the grinding wheel can ruin a new cam as well. A few months ago we had a rash of cams that wiped the lobes off in under a half hour. Turns our our grinding stone had a tiny nick in it that caused the lobes to be slightly mis-shapen, which changed the loading on the lifters. Good news is we caught them all, because it was a short hour failure, bad news was it took quite a while to figure out what was going on because the root cause wasn't that obvious, so we made a lot of them!