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OK, I replaced the PS box, drained the old fluid out, installed a serviceable return line filter and filled with fresh fluid and bleed the air out. And the problem has returned after one lap around the neighborhood.

Back in 09 I started having a problem with the steering getting stiff and the pump/belt squalling. With the proximity of the PS pump/line to the exhaust manifold I figured the fluid/pump had gotten too hot. SO I replaced the pump, added a cooler and heat shield. Well the problem continued, so back then I replaced the steering box as well. Well, the problem mostly (not 100% completely) went away, that is until last year. It got so bad that once while driving down a hill (on a trail) I could not turn to avoid a tree, and had to stop, and have someone pull me back up until the steering responded so I could turn and avoid it and go on down the hill.

The problem happens regardless of direction turning, setting still or moving, or engine speed.

So after talking to a few guys, and Matt driving it in Iowa he was like me and most others, that there was something with the box, so I replaced it today.

At first after getting the air out, everything was great, one trip around the neighborhood, all was fine, then suddenly it was back.

So do I replace the pump again? The fluid is still clear and clean, and looks just like it did when I poured it in.

Any suggestions ideas? Considering pulling the belt off and seeing how it derives with out the pump running.

Help,
Will

The hose was a new custom built hose in 2007. The pitman arm is stock and replaced in 2010 along with a new Intermediate arm pivot pin.

Going over and over this in my mind while trying to fall asleep, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's nothing to do with the PS Pump, Box or Hoses. If it was the hose I'd expect it to squeal from time to time even when not turning the wheel, as there is always pressure in the hose. the problem only happens sometimes when turning, regardless of direction.

I'm wondering if it's something in the ball/sockets, or even the intermediate idler arm pivot. Not sure what would be left after that.

Will

Will.
Does that pump have a Pressure fitting or a Flow Control Valve on it ? I'm no expert on PS pumps, But I just replaced the one on my Ramcharger,. And the Shop manual says that a sticking or damaged valve can cause intermittent assist...just my 2 cents....

Sal

Sal, I suspect the valve is internal. The box is the the typical unit found on Dodges, just uses the keyed pully rather than the pressed on. O'Reilly's part number 20-6159F.

With out the PS Belt - This sucks!

Gee, boy was it hard to steer with out the PS belt attached. Even after adding air to the front tires.

Stiff, hard two handed steering, so much so I didn't go for. Put it on jack stands and steering seems smooth, but still a little more resistance than I like. Takes more than one finger for lock to lock.

Only play in the steering is in the intermediate arm bushing/pin area. Everything accepts grease with no issue.

Wondered if the knuckle lower steering bearings are in need of service? I installed bearings when I rebuilt the front in 05 rather than the bushings.


Re-Installed the PS Belt and ...

Well, I re-installed and tightened good and tight the PS Belt.

On the jack stands, easy as pie, no squeals, but have noticed a tougher spot at about 1/2 right turn.

Two laps around the neighborhood, and all is good, no squalls and easy steering. So off to town to return the PS box and see how it does on a longer drive.

Guess the belt was a little loose. But with the steering locking up before and no matter how hard I tried to turn it wouldn't, I suspect the box had a problem as well. If not, oh well it was only time and fluid cost as the box was under warranty.


Results after a 20 mile drive...

I took the opportunity to use the M to return the old box back to O'Rielly's and see how everything worked.

The steering is back to it's original great feel and power assist with no binding or squalling.

Looks like the box was probably bad as well as a loose belt. So all is good (for now).

Hopefully I've got it licked for a little while at least.

Thanks,
Will

I think we may have had this discussion before. I believe you have a locker in your front end. If I'm correct and you have the front end locked in as postive, the power steering pump won't last long. You may say you haven't locked it in since this change; well likely it will work fine until you lock it in. That applies so much stress to the pump, it will give up soon; maybe not right away, but it's a pump killer and you can look for it to die. If you change to a bigger pump to over come this stress, then components start breaking. Those big tires also increase the stress loading. In short there is no way to over come all this with stock components in place. If you ever achieve success, you'll have to over build the entire steering system so both mechanical and hydraulic components will stand the pressure.

Charles,

Yep you remember correctly. I have a selectable locker at both ends. ARB Lockers.

The front is very rarely locked, and since it won't turn when locked I has to be disconnected before turning.

Yea, there is always a weak link in everything and steering has them and wear points that sometimes make driving hard and dangerous. I'm sure I know what broke the pitman arm a couple years back, and I know others with large tires have broke them and intermediate arms. As you know this is my fun truck, and I drive it for fun and enjoyment, sometimes that enjoyment is fixing what I break.

With out some more seat and wheel time to further verify the current condition, I believe the box had a problem, and the pump belt was loose. To fit and clear the '68 short snout water pumped 318 and the PS pump, both the drive and driven pulleys are smaller than stock, and the pump (driven) pulley is small enough that I'm over spinning the pump (more PS power). These smaller pulleys helped clear things but means the belt will slip easier.

Thanks,
Will

We have had a couple of bad boxes, mostly due to leaking fluid. Pump can be set up for specified pressure delivery and flow rate. I'm sure you know this. It might be worthwhile to check into these custom settings. It may be possible to get closer to the proper specs at the RPM yours turns.

I try to look at everything that may happen during a failure. My wife says I have to do everything perfect; when it comes to steering and brakes, she is 1,000% right. In the shop, with all systems we set our aim on perfection as much as possible. Our most popular saying is that "if better is possible, good isn't enough." Unlike your view; I just don't enjoy fixing something over and over; especially if I suspect it is doomed to fail. Repeated expense is one thing, and it just plain out hurts my feelings to have to go back into something prematurely. My preference is to fix it right with emphasis on not having a failure and the dangerous situations that can accompany said failure. That's just the way we look at things around here.

Charles,

The box was acting like it had a bad ball or something loose in it. With the installation of the replacement, a fresh flush and new filter went in, so I'll keep the belt tight and see how it works before I state a final solution has been found.

I like your saying "if better is possible, good isn't enough." Brakes have always been my pet peeve, but steering should be there with it as well. You and your crew do a great job, and I admire the work. FMEA is a good tool and practice and I admire your focus on preventing failures, too bad perfect doesn't exist.

As for fixing the same problem over and over, what I said was "sometimes that enjoyment is fixing what I break", not that I enjoy fixing the same thing over and over. I enjoy the wrenching as much as the driving, but hate fixing the same issue over and over. I do not look forward to another broken Foote rear axle or front tracta joint/axle, but expect them to break. The other fix I do over and over is the crappy TPS from Holley on their Pro-Junk'tion throttle body system, but their response to be on why I seem to have an annual failure of the TPS was: "If you have voltage spikes, transient voltage feedback, or expose the sensor to water they will have premature failure. The TPS can also fail if the engine has extreme vibration. Thank you, Derek". Guess I should have stuck with a carburetor, or now switch to one of the newer/better TBI systems.

If I'd known what I know now when I built the M, I would have probably went ahead and installed narrowed modern heavy axles that I originally looked at, and had hubs modified for the Budd Wheel Pattern. This would have lead to a complete steering fresh design and allowed my to design out the week points. As for now, other than a better aftermarket pump designed for my pulley and rpm's I've re-considered getting away from the stock pitman arm, drag links and intermediate arm like others who use their truck as I do. However right now my off-roading use has dramatically slowed down, and I'm in no hurry or perhaps need to get into that, yet.

My wife now loves doing light trail rides in the M, and as asked that I stop enjoying (IE: breaking) it, so to comply, I'll build a Jeep with proper components at some point to fill my hard core off-roading desires (perhaps I've followed Roger King too many times). However after the Vintage truck pull at the Iowa Rally, I've now got the hankering to build a puller, but oh well, that's a different forum and requirements.

I've learned a lot on these trucks and from others here and elsewhere, and continue to learn more every day of my life. I'm sure I abuse the truck more than I should, but my intent is to be safe and enjoy. As long as I'm learning and enjoying I'm alive.

Will

I have a Saginaw question, possibly a stupid one but in fitting my steering box up (bearing in mind my truck is right hand drive) one of the 2 large lugs sticking out of the side of the box may contact the drag link under heavy suspension compression, is this casting solid and is it ok to removes as necessary?

MM

Ok, I'll cut as need and let you all know if it worked, just in case anybody else finds they have the need to do this...

MM

I'm hesitant to offer advice as I have not seen your right hand drive set up, or the box you are using.

I don't blame you Charles, I may have the only right hand drive M37 about the place let alone one with power steering on the drawring board. I'll post pics once the bracket is finished, the problem with the design is that unlike the setup you guys build I have to invert the box and that means the bulk of the steering box is below the output shaft. It isn't a worry as the geometery allows for it all bar one of the lugs on the side of the box that may foul the drag link under full suspension travel. Once I have the bracket roughed out I can check for clearances once I compress the suspension.
If it all goes to putt and isn't viable I'll keep it set up so I can simply switch back to the origonal box.

Best Regards - MM