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I just got the engine from my M37 back from the machine shop, it was a complete top and bottom rebuild.

The area behind the freeze plugs still has a size able amount of cooling system crud, I dislodged much of it with an angled pick and
vacuumed it out.

Should the cleaning done prior to the engine rebuild completely removed the crud?

Also there was a very small amount of flash rust on top of the block, is this something I should be concerned with?

Basically I'm irritated and need to decide if these issues are something I should address.

I did some research on the machine shop, it was well thought of and originally recommended to me by a local auto repair place.

I would ask them about what was done specificly to ensure your components were cleaned.

Flash rust usually means they didn't spray anything on the machined surface's to protect them (like WD40) to prevent such things. Rust shows up very fast, and its really the last thing you want on a machined surface that takes a gasket or a bearing.

As for the coolant crud, that "should" have come out during the hot-tank process (if used) to clean the block. Take some pictures, and then go ask some questions at the shop that did the work. You'll definitely know whether you should be irritated or not afterward.

rc51racer wrote:I just got the engine from my M37 back from the machine shop, it was a complete top and bottom rebuild.

The area behind the freeze plugs still has a size able amount of cooling system crud, I dislodged much of it with an angled pick and
vacuumed it out.

Should the cleaning done prior to the engine rebuild completely removed the crud?

Also there was a very small amount of flash rust on top of the block, is this something I should be concerned with?

Basically I'm irritated and need to decide if these issues are something I should address.

I did some research on the machine shop, it was well thought of and originally recommended to me by a local auto repair place.

Question 1; what do you really mean when you say top to bottom rebuild? I know the answer if we had done it, but what does it mean at the shop you used?

Question 2; Were the old freeze plugs removed prior to vatting the block? If so, and the cleaning process had been done properly, the crud wouldn't be there, so what does this tell you right up front? If I were you, I would have never left the shop with it in that condition. If you accepted it, that was likely not a wise move.

Absolutely the crud should have been 100% gone prior to any machining being done, PERIOD. The fact is you can not remove the crud by vacuuming, simply because there are areas that can't be accessed to do so. The next question is where else was crud left that you are not able to see? In the block oil galley passages perhaps, who knows? Only you can get a bottom line answer to this, but based on what you have stated here, sounds like it just got a lick, promise, and out the door instead of a top quality build. If they would leave it like this and expect you to be happy, I most certainly have doubts about the quality of workmanship as applied to any other steps they did. My friend, you should be a lot more than just irritated, and if I were you; these folks WOULD be licking the calf over again; however if you have already accepted it in this condition, and paid them for it, you may not have left yourself a leg to stand on, hard to say. The typical story is this, a shop that turns out this type of substandard workmanship is usually the place that gives customers a hard time about making something they did that wasn't up to par right to the customer's satisfaction. Maybe this will not be the case for you, good luck. As far as surface rust on the deck and any other areas, once again it shouldn't be. I mean how hard is it to spray a simple inexpensive rust inhibitor such as WD-40 on the surface? Again, what does this tell you about the quality of their workmanship? Just the little you have shared with us here has already convinced me that I would never use this shop.

What research did you actually do on this shop? Did you simply go on a recommendation from someone, or did you actually go to the shop and inspect what they did and their way of doing it? Did you ask serious questions of them prior to giving them the job that would let them know up front what you expected with the end product? If another repair facility is truely happy with the work this place turns out and recommended them; then my next question would be, what type work do they turn out if they accept as ok what you got from the rebuild shop? It all trickles down. If a facility doesn't do first rate work for us, we don't use them again, and certainly don't recommend them to others. Research should be done to educate yourself thoroughly prior to even asking questions and paying a walk in visit; then you know what questions to ask and how to ask them in such a way that the management gets the drift on what you expect. If handled this way, usually one of 2 things will happen. Either there will be some excuse as to why they can't do the job when you need it, they just don't specialize in that type engine, or something along those lines because they have already figured out that you won't be happy with what they offer; or they will be happy to see a potential customer that really wants a job done right, and will be excited for the opportunity to show you a top quality outcome that will give good service, you will be proud of, and will tell someone else about their first rate workmanship that ultimately brings them more new and repeat customers.

I think that about covers it.

Charles answers to your questions are below, also here are some pictures of the issues in question:

http://gieselman.com/Media.aspx?AlbumID=54

unfortunately I took the pics after I cleaned behind the freeze plugs and tried to mitigate the flash rust which destroys some of the evidence.

Answer 1: Machine work included bore and hone the cylinders, surfaced the head and block, install hardened valve seats, ground crankshaft, re-sized connecting rods

Parts included new pistons, rings, main, connecting rod and camshaft bearings, valves, oil pump, timing set and complete gasket set.

They sent the crank out for machining but the rest of the work was done onsite.

Answer 2: The freeze plugs were definitely in it after the hot tank as I dropped by a couple times while it was being rebuilt. In fact 3 of the freeze plugs were still in it at time of pickup, specifically the ones at either end of the block.

I didn't know there was crud in the areas behind the freeze plugs until I got it home and on an engine stand, while at the machine shop it was laying on the side the freeze plugs go and on that side loaded in my truck.

I do know I can't get out all of the crud using a pick and further if I put it back in the truck as is I'm gonna be real unhappy at some point when the radiator clogs and it overheats.

Because of the crud I also have questions about the quality of the rebuild.

I got the shop recommendation from a garage, I visited it twice prior to rebuild and I researched it on the internet. I was explicit in what I expected and made sure that they answered the questions I had. When I dropped the engine off I brought my brother with me who owns a farm machinery business and started off as a mechanic to also get his opinion. I asked questions before, during and at time of pickup about my rebuild. So I did my due diligence.

I agree with everything you say Charles, not dispute.

The question I have now is do I stop payment on the check and take the engine to another shop so it can be properly cleaned and machining checked or is the issue I have minor, I think it's not minor I just want a second opinion.

Costa Mesa R&D Automotive Machine is up the road a bit, this is their Thermal Cleaning process which is exactly what I would have expected done and reasonably priced at $100:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paUTGRdctpE

The shop I took my engine to had similar equipment.

The stuff you are pulling out is to me rediculous. No reputable machine shop vats a block with the freeze plugs, oil galley plugs, or any other plugs not being removed. I also noticed the oil pressure relief valve plug was still in place. This does not allow for proper cleaning of the oil passages. Do you know the valve seats were replaced? They would have had to counter bored the deck to install new intake seats as the originals are simply machined into the deck and are not replaceable. I can't imagine they would go to that trouble after seeing their clean up workmanship. Did you get a 3 angle seat grind? Are the springs shimmed? The springs look suspicious to me also, looked like they had spots of rust on them in your photos. They don't look like any new springs I ever saw. No way would I have accepted it in that condition. You asked for my opinion, so I'm going to be completely honest with you and let the chips fall where they may; I don't understand why you didn't check all this out prior to accepting it. The fact that you didn't notice because the side of the block with freeze plugs was not on top, well, honestly that's a poor inspection to perform when you are about to write a check. You had an experienced mechanic with you at pick up, and neither of you did a good look over of this project, yet you said you did your due diligence? I guess there is part of that picture I just don't understand. I'd be afraid of the whole deal. I wouldn't install it in my truck.

Here's how this would work in our shop. If one of my employees had sent a short block assembly out of our shop in that condition, he would be on his way out right behind it, probably with my boot print on the seat of his pants. We don't tolerate stuff like that.

When the customer came back and showed it to me, I would have thanked him for coming to me instead of telling everyone else what happened. I would redo it 100% at no cost to the customer, and would invite him to be present during the process to personally see what goes on. There is no excuse for crap like this happening; it's no better than a common thief to take someone's money and give them what you got.

Thanks Charles, the mechanic you reference was not with me when it was picked up.

They did not replace the springs, just the valves.

I did verify that they installed new valve seats, not sure if they did a 3 angle seat grind or not.

On the due diligence, you restore M37s among other vehicles all the time, I'm in progress on my first as a hobby. I appreciate you taking the time to post
but realize not everyone is a career mechanic and may not have the knowledge you do.

There are two kinds of people in this world, ones that would look at it the engine, understand they messed up and make it right and those that will get very
defensive.

I'll find out which category the machine shop owner is in tomorrow when I tell him I stopped payment on the check.

rc51racer wrote:Thanks Charles, the mechanic you reference was not with me when it was picked up.

They did not replace the springs, just the valves.

I did verify that they installed new valve seats, not sure if they did a 3 angle seat grind or not.

On the due diligence, you restore M37s among other vehicles all the time, I'm in progress on my first as a hobby. I appreciate you taking the time to post
but realize not everyone is a career mechanic and may not have the knowledge you do.

There are two kinds of people in this world, ones that would look at it the engine, understand they messed up and make it right and those that will get very
defensive.

I'll find out which category the machine shop owner is in tomorrow when I tell him I stopped payment on the check.

Ok, I misunderstood about who was with you when you made the pickup, my goof.

The fact that old worn valve springs were put back in place with an otherwise new valve train is not a good practice by any stretch, even personell at a substandard machine shop should know better. What is the issue with that, springs are not an expensive or hard to find item, it is certainly foolish to bypass that.

Let me be clear, all the regulars here on the forum know I'm a straight shooter when it comes to telling things like it is. I was not trying to belittle or offend you at all. These are just run of the mill facts I mentioned. The main reason I pointed this stuff out plain like I did was because the days of taking your engine to a shop and saying just fix it right without worry are largely gone. I thoroughly trust the machinist we use on a regular basis, but we still inspect his work carefully before we accept it, and he ask us to do so. No man including us is beyond letting something slip by undetected, nobody is perfect and never will be. We do find issues that get over looked by our machinist, although it is very rare. When we do catch something, the owner is right on it, he will readily work at night or on a weekend to make it right at no charge, and always offers to knock off some on the cost of the next job to cover any extra aggrevation we may have encountered as a result. I never accept his offer simply because he does us a great job and is so willing to fix any issues if they do occur right away.

The stuff you have found with yours are things anybody should have known better than to let slip by. I'd venture to say the type stuff you found was almost certainly not slip ups that just got by, but things that were simply just let go. Things like the freeze plugs not being removed and all the filth being left behind does not take a trained eye to know that isn't right. Actually it sounds more like a plain old don't care attitude to me. It can't be good for any business to send out jobs in that condition, I've never been able to figure out why shop owners let it happen, are they not looking at what their people turn out? Do they not understand that they will likely lose that customer, but they will tell others about your business practices, and you lose even more.

Great thread and a boatload of info for me to delve into when I seek to have mine rebuilt. I'll also second Charles' level of expertise when it comes to M37s-he gives of his advice and perspectives free of charge, and you can be certain of the wisdom of his words.
Gary

I sure hope that you are planning on taking your mechanic brother and the block with you when you go to see this shops owner.

Did they charge you for new freeze plugs? Is it possible for you to rotate the cam so that one of the valves open completely and take a picture from the side for us?

I would take a hard look at the drive end of your oil pump as well. It should have an off center drive groove for your 24 volt dist.

I would hope that this shop wasn't counting on your inexperience to slip one by. My guess is that they are just pretending to be real engine rebuilders.

Bert

Charles I'm absolutely not offended by your reply, I know you are the go to guy on all matters M37.

My mechanic brother lives in Indiana, I'm in San Diego.

They did charge for new freeze plugs and I have them, I ordered brass ones that haven't come in yet. Had I dropped those by to him I would have never known about this issue.

I'll get a pic of the valve.

The oil pump is identical to the take out, box says Melling on it and part number is M-37.

Perhaps because I asked a lot of questions they assumed they could get one by, truth is if they had removed ALL of the freeze
plugs prior to hot tanking there wouldn't be problem or at least one I could see visually. And Charles is also right they should
have replaced the valve springs at $2.41 a piece that's a no brainer.

I'm going by the shop on my way to work this morning and discuss the problems with the owner, I don't have anyone here to help me load it or I'd take it with me.

I'm going by the shop on my way to work this morning and discuss the problems with the owner, I don't have anyone here to help me load it or I'd take it with me.

That's the best starting point. It just may be he just fired the mechanic that worked your block and he just might jump at the opportunity to make things right. It pays to give the vendor the heads up on a problem and see what his response is before dragging his name through the mud so to speak.

I am sure any vendor represented here on this board would appreciate a visit from an unhappy customer before that customer goes public or initiates any corrective or legal action.

I'm going to offer to pay for the parts and ask that the amount it takes to fix the issue is subtracted from the labor total, to me that seems very fair.

I have a lack of confidence in the shop to correct the issue, they had 2 chance to fix it, first chance was during hot tanking when the plugs should have
been removed. Second chance was during assembly when they spray painted the mound of crud behind the freeze plug hole black, I stuck my finger in it
and it was 1.5" deep and clearly visible. (In my defense at first I thought it was part of the casting.)

I do contract engineering so I deal with customers all the time and I'm payed by the hour and as such if I make a mistake I would fix it on my dime to
make it right with the customer.

There are two employees that work there, the owner and his son.

I should also add I'm not going to slander the guy on the internet and what happens in regards to legal action or other is entirely up to him.

[quote="rc51racer"]
The oil pump is identical to the take out, box says Melling on it and part number is M-37.
{quote]


If you are running the Military dist you will want to take another look. I don't know everything, but you will want to take a look at the drive end like mentioned before. The overall outside of the civy pump looks the same as the Military pump "BUT THE DRIVE END IS DIFFERENT" and will ruin your dist. If you can get it put together.

Bert

rc51racer wrote:Charles I'm absolutely not offended by your reply, I know you are the go to guy on all matters M37.

My mechanic brother lives in Indiana, I'm in San Diego.

They did charge for new freeze plugs and I have them, I ordered brass ones that haven't come in yet. Had I dropped those by to him I would have never known about this issue.

I'll get a pic of the valve.

The oil pump is identical to the take out, box says Melling on it and part number is M-37.

Perhaps because I asked a lot of questions they assumed they could get one by, truth is if they had removed ALL of the freeze
plugs prior to hot tanking there wouldn't be problem or at least one I could see visually. And Charles is also right they should
have replaced the valve springs at $2.41 a piece that's a no brainer.

I'm going by the shop on my way to work this morning and discuss the problems with the owner, I don't have anyone here to help me load it or I'd take it with me.

The Melling #M37 pump is not the military pump. That is a civilian pump and it has a centered drive slot. It is not compatible with your military distributor shaft.