Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:05 am
Very well stated Wes.
Bert
Bert
Again I recommend getting the MVPA involved with this-they've had a great deal of success with this issue, in several states.
Gary
Page 2 of 2
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:18 am
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:12 am
could you sell the vehicle to a fellow dodger in another state who would register it and title it? you could then buy it back and register it. my command car is correctly registered as a 4 door dodge convertible. i see no reason why you couldn't register a truck from another state that was properly documented as a dodge pickup.
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:05 pm
Youre right Wes, Imust be incredibly stupid to have thought for a moment I would be allowed to operate my personal property in the same manner as anyone else that owns and modifies cars as a hobby.
Re-read my posts. Where did I call any lawmakers or officals names? I've been very respectful, probably moreso than they deserve, to all of the politicians I have contacted.
As far as leaving emotion out of it; why bother then? It's just another piece of metal, like a toaster, or blender. Isn't that what I hear you guys rail abouton here; what society has turned into? Can't have it both ways.
Pretty sad day when those that are supposedly on the same side of the fight turn on you.
Im out. Its been fun, but im done, I won't be back, certainly not to this forum, possibly not to M37's, or cars as a hobby in general.
I'm tired of the constant struggle with anyone and everyone I come into contact with over it. We should all just hand everything over to the lawyers, politicians and government and get our asymilation over with.
Re-read my posts. Where did I call any lawmakers or officals names? I've been very respectful, probably moreso than they deserve, to all of the politicians I have contacted.
As far as leaving emotion out of it; why bother then? It's just another piece of metal, like a toaster, or blender. Isn't that what I hear you guys rail abouton here; what society has turned into? Can't have it both ways.
Pretty sad day when those that are supposedly on the same side of the fight turn on you.
Im out. Its been fun, but im done, I won't be back, certainly not to this forum, possibly not to M37's, or cars as a hobby in general.
I'm tired of the constant struggle with anyone and everyone I come into contact with over it. We should all just hand everything over to the lawyers, politicians and government and get our asymilation over with.
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:19 pm
The reality, Josh, is that Wisconsin is trying to write stronger interpretations of the Fed Standards or statutes than actually exist. I don't know that registering an M37 in another state and then trying to bring it back into the People's Republik of Wisconsin will work, as it's still a 19XX Dodge M37 - WISDOT needs to POINT you to the SPECIFIC reason that they are trying to firewall you from registering your truck.
For the Historic Record: No Federal Safety Standards of ANY kind existed prior to the legislation that created the U.S. Department of Transportation in October of 1966. This legislation created several predecessor agencies which would eventually become NHTSA, including the National Traffic Safety Agency, the National Highway Safety Agency, and the National Highway Safety Bureau.
The FIRST (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) - 'FMVSS 209' came into play on March 1, 1967.
It dealt with Seat Belt Assemblies.
For anyone in WisDOT to say that this vehicle doesn't meet "Federal Standards" for year of manufacture is laughable... they obviously have no idea that this info can be found in 5 minutes on the web. And to their comment of 'taking it to a registered importer' would only apply if you were bringing in a Pinzgauer, or a Unimog, Land Rover, or other imported vehicle. The US DOT has a rolling 25-year cut-off for importation of other than US vehicles, and the EPA only looks back 21 years. Domestic market manufactured vehicles don't require that the vehicle be taken to a registered importer... they're talking out their tailpipe.
Quotes taken directly from the DOT and NHTSA web site:
"Imported motor vehicles are subject to safety standards under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, revised under the Imported Vehicle Safety Compliance Act of 1988; to bumper standards under the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act of 1972, which became effective in 1978; and to air pollution control standards under the Clean Air Act of 1968, as amended in 1977 and 1990. Most vehicles manufactured abroad that conform with U.S. safety, bumper, and emission standards are exported expressly for sale in the United States; therefore, it is unlikely that a vehicle obtained abroad meets all relevant standards. Be skeptical of claims by a foreign dealer or other seller that a vehicle meets these standards or can readily be brought into compliance. Nonconforming vehicles entering the United States must be brought into compliance, exported, or destroyed."
"Both the Department of Transportation and the Environmental Protection Agency advise that although a nonconforming car may be conditionally admitted, the modifications required to bring it into compliance may be so extensive and costly that it may be impractical and even impossible to achieve such compliance. Moreover, under Federal Regulations 49 CFR parts 591 through 594, effective January 31, 1990, some vehicle models are prohibited from importation. It is highly recommended that these prohibitions and modifications be investigated before a vehicle is purchased for importation."
The Federal Rules don't apply if said vehicle is built before 1966, or to domestic market cars built prior to 1966. Period.
From the mouth of the Feds... use the Fed info against those in WisDOT.
Good Luck in your battle.
'Tanner'
For the Historic Record: No Federal Safety Standards of ANY kind existed prior to the legislation that created the U.S. Department of Transportation in October of 1966. This legislation created several predecessor agencies which would eventually become NHTSA, including the National Traffic Safety Agency, the National Highway Safety Agency, and the National Highway Safety Bureau.
The FIRST (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) - 'FMVSS 209' came into play on March 1, 1967.
It dealt with Seat Belt Assemblies.
For anyone in WisDOT to say that this vehicle doesn't meet "Federal Standards" for year of manufacture is laughable... they obviously have no idea that this info can be found in 5 minutes on the web. And to their comment of 'taking it to a registered importer' would only apply if you were bringing in a Pinzgauer, or a Unimog, Land Rover, or other imported vehicle. The US DOT has a rolling 25-year cut-off for importation of other than US vehicles, and the EPA only looks back 21 years. Domestic market manufactured vehicles don't require that the vehicle be taken to a registered importer... they're talking out their tailpipe.
Quotes taken directly from the DOT and NHTSA web site:
"Imported motor vehicles are subject to safety standards under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, revised under the Imported Vehicle Safety Compliance Act of 1988; to bumper standards under the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act of 1972, which became effective in 1978; and to air pollution control standards under the Clean Air Act of 1968, as amended in 1977 and 1990. Most vehicles manufactured abroad that conform with U.S. safety, bumper, and emission standards are exported expressly for sale in the United States; therefore, it is unlikely that a vehicle obtained abroad meets all relevant standards. Be skeptical of claims by a foreign dealer or other seller that a vehicle meets these standards or can readily be brought into compliance. Nonconforming vehicles entering the United States must be brought into compliance, exported, or destroyed."
"Both the Department of Transportation and the Environmental Protection Agency advise that although a nonconforming car may be conditionally admitted, the modifications required to bring it into compliance may be so extensive and costly that it may be impractical and even impossible to achieve such compliance. Moreover, under Federal Regulations 49 CFR parts 591 through 594, effective January 31, 1990, some vehicle models are prohibited from importation. It is highly recommended that these prohibitions and modifications be investigated before a vehicle is purchased for importation."
The Federal Rules don't apply if said vehicle is built before 1966, or to domestic market cars built prior to 1966. Period.
From the mouth of the Feds... use the Fed info against those in WisDOT.
Good Luck in your battle.
'Tanner'
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:02 pm
Josh,
My statements concerned the general public and did not state that Josh personally called anyone anything.
I am not against you. I am simply pointing out the obvious problems dealing with a state or federal regulating agency and offering less emotional and more productive alternatives to apply when dealing with them.
Tanner,
Read a bit closer. The Wis MVD did not say this. They said modified Historic Military Vehicles must meet current Federal Safety Standards for a Hobbyist plate.
Also their reference to importing is not only to foreign imports but any vehicle (manufactured in US or abroad) imported into the state with no prior State or Federal Safety Standard certification.
My statements concerned the general public and did not state that Josh personally called anyone anything.
I am not against you. I am simply pointing out the obvious problems dealing with a state or federal regulating agency and offering less emotional and more productive alternatives to apply when dealing with them.
Tanner,
For anyone in WisDOT to say that this vehicle doesn't meet "Federal Standards" for year of manufacture is laughable.
Read a bit closer. The Wis MVD did not say this. They said modified Historic Military Vehicles must meet current Federal Safety Standards for a Hobbyist plate.
Also their reference to importing is not only to foreign imports but any vehicle (manufactured in US or abroad) imported into the state with no prior State or Federal Safety Standard certification.
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:51 am
Josh,
We share your frustrations over the struggles you are having-we're trying to be supportive and offer solutions. I know I can speak for Cuz and everyone else on this forum that we value you and your contributions to the success of this forum and we'd hate to see you throw in the towel and give up. We have a hard enough time recruiting new members to share the fun of our hobby, and to lose a brother over some state idiocy is just sad. Please stay with us!
Thanks,
Gary
We share your frustrations over the struggles you are having-we're trying to be supportive and offer solutions. I know I can speak for Cuz and everyone else on this forum that we value you and your contributions to the success of this forum and we'd hate to see you throw in the towel and give up. We have a hard enough time recruiting new members to share the fun of our hobby, and to lose a brother over some state idiocy is just sad. Please stay with us!
Thanks,
Gary
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:29 am
josh:
being involved in the heavy trucking industry, i can commiserate with your frustration with the laws and regulations that seem to multiply daily. i do not however share your ability to give up, throw in the towel or threaten to leave my industry because of the encroaching hand of big brother. i fight it each day and use my voice, my ingenuity and my last shred of patience to adapt and overcome. it has worked thus far. as a young guy with a truck and a desire to get it registered, you should be undeterred. find a legal way around your problem and get your truck on the road. use the resources at your disposal at the MVPA and Hemmings motor news to get your story out. if you decide to give up, fret not, as i believe most here would continue to restore trucks, modify trucks and enjoy trucks in your absence. $50 says retired guy gets his modified truck plated....
being involved in the heavy trucking industry, i can commiserate with your frustration with the laws and regulations that seem to multiply daily. i do not however share your ability to give up, throw in the towel or threaten to leave my industry because of the encroaching hand of big brother. i fight it each day and use my voice, my ingenuity and my last shred of patience to adapt and overcome. it has worked thus far. as a young guy with a truck and a desire to get it registered, you should be undeterred. find a legal way around your problem and get your truck on the road. use the resources at your disposal at the MVPA and Hemmings motor news to get your story out. if you decide to give up, fret not, as i believe most here would continue to restore trucks, modify trucks and enjoy trucks in your absence. $50 says retired guy gets his modified truck plated....
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:18 am
Josh,
If you are a MVPA member then you should have received this email. It was sent out today.This is how you beat city hall!
If you are a MVPA member then you should have received this email. It was sent out today.This is how you beat city hall!
The following information is from MVPA member Tom Zatloukal of Aniwa, Wisconsin. This message is being sent as a courtesy from MVPA-HQ to current and former MVPA members in Wisconsin. If you have comments or questions contact Tom at 715.449.2141 or cosmo4info@gmail.com
Registration Rights Act
February 15, 2012 UPDATE:
GREAT NEWS, WE HAVE A BILL NUMBER!
Your emails, phone calls, letters got the attention of our legislators.
· We had a Senate Bill number announced on Monday, SB462.
· We are waiting the companion Assembly bill number.
· This is phase two. The next step is that the bill will go in front of the transportation committees.
· We are hoping to have a joint Senate & Assembly committee hearing so that we only have to have one public hearing.
· Yesterday, we met with most of the committee members and other influential legislators and/or their staff to answer any questions they might have.
Our bill has overwhelming bi-partisan support.
· We were told the committee meeting will be scheduled during the week of Feb. 20-24.
· We will have several people to speak and answer the legislators' questions.
· You do not have to go to the hearing to show your support. As soon as the date is set,
we will post the information so you can show your support in person if you wish.
· We need everyone to list your name and address by filling in the form by click here to link or the one at the bottom of the page.
· This list will go into the record to show citizen support for this bill.
Sign up now! Tell everybody you know to sign up. We can win.
Why the Registration Rights Act is Necessary
Over the past few years, many vehicle owners have had problems getting registration for their older vehicles, including home-builts, imports, hotrods, Gov. surplus and more. Some problems were resolved by appeals, and the passage of 2 bills in 2010 but those same bills created new problems. Many more are still unable to obtain proper registration. A small group have of us have been working to resolve these issues. After numerous meetings with DOT it has become painfully clear that the Dept.'s vision of what should be allowed to operate on Wisconsin's highways greatly differs from ours.
Some Details:
Many vehicles have been denied registration, under seemingly arbitrary decisions by DMV. Examples include vehicles denied registration because they were repainted another color, radial tires on collector cars, chrome parts in the engine bay which were original to that vehicle, the addition of a stereo and a 1943 vehicle which did not meet 1968 FMVSS equipment standards. One vehicle was previously registered in Wisconsin as a hobbyist, but was now denied hobbyist plates. Another had been collector plate registered in Wisconsin for decades, but was now denied collector plates upon a change of ownership. DMV attempted to remove older vehicles from the road by adopting trans 123 which was defeated through the efforts of car collectors throughout the state. DMV has reinterpreted a long existing statute and has begun enforcing a requirement that a motor vehicle must retain its federal certification label to be registered. This means if you replaced the driver's door or painted over the sticker on your Chevy, you could be denied registration.
We believe that if the vehicle meets Wisconsin equipment standards for the original date of manufacture, then that vehicle is eligible for registration in Wisconsin. If the registration application gets refused, then the owner should be able to get the vehicle inspected by their local law-enforcement for equipment compliance. If the vehicle meets the standards, then DOT must issue registration. This way, the requirements are clearly defined, and the owner has a recourse if DOT refuses to issue registration.
We are not trying to license illegal vehicles. Currently, DOT has laws which require them to refuse registration under certain situations. We believe there must be laws which require DMV to issue registration. To this end we are preparing legislation that will eliminate the statutory requirement that a vehicle must retain its certification label (ss341.10(6)) and eliminate the statute that requires a former military vehicle to meet FMVSS even if it was manufactured before FMVSS existed (ss341.10(6m)). We are also proposing that if WisDOT refuses an application for registration due to vehicle condition, equipment requirements or documentation (excluding proof of ownership), the owner may have the vehicle inspected for chapter 347 equipment requirements for the date of original manufacture. If the vehicle passes the inspection, DMV must issue registration.
Examples of 347 equipment requirements; a vehicle manufactured after 1952 must have two taillights. Tires have a minimum tread requirement and there are no rust holes in the floor.
The vehicle inspection being available to the vehicle's owner allows the owner an easy proof that the vehicle should be registered.
We also propose a small change to the collector registration. Currently, the definition of a collector car is a motor vehicle which has not been altered or modified from original manufacturer specifications. That criteria does not allow for any alterations to the vehicle even for safety reasons. If the definition is modified to read: "...a vehicle which has not been substantially altered or modified..." this would allow the owner of a pre-1937 vehicle to install safety glass, use of reproduction parts, change of color, etc. By adopting this word, we limit DMV's authority as to what is correct and original on our vehicles. Enthusiasts can spend their entire life becoming an "authority" on one vehicle, it is simply not possible for DMV to be the "authority" on originality of all vehicles.
What's Next
We now have a bill number, SB462 and the Assembly companion bill will be announced shortly. Committee hearings will be held the week of Feb. 20th. We need everyone to show their support by clicking here to register Do it now, you can make a difference!
This e-mail was sent from Military Vehicle Preservation Association (hq@mvpa.org) to wsknettl@centurytel.net.
To unsubscribe, please click on this link and follow the instructions: Unsubscribe
Military Vehicle Preservation Association,PO Box 520378 Independence MO 64052, Phone Number:(816) 833-6872, Fax Number: (816) 833-5115, Email Address: hq@mvpa.org, Website :
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:49 am
Josh,
I feel your frustration. Don't give up! Remember the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Be the squeeky wheel. Call, your state reps. Call the governers office, call the media, call who ever will listen and give you the time of day. Talk to the MVPA it looks like they are fighting for you so your story may help them. But don't give up man! Keep the truck titled in MI and enjoy it until you get the law changed. If you need to get another set of plates your welcome to live in Cleveland Ohio.... Just don't give up!
I feel your frustration. Don't give up! Remember the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Be the squeeky wheel. Call, your state reps. Call the governers office, call the media, call who ever will listen and give you the time of day. Talk to the MVPA it looks like they are fighting for you so your story may help them. But don't give up man! Keep the truck titled in MI and enjoy it until you get the law changed. If you need to get another set of plates your welcome to live in Cleveland Ohio.... Just don't give up!
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:08 pm
So Cuz.... I see that the halls of Wisconsin politics are now staffed with engineers? And the whiz kids in Wisconsin DOT are now above the Feds? Reciprocity agreements with other states in regards tocuz wrote:
Tanner,
For anyone in WisDOT to say that this vehicle doesn't meet "Federal Standards" for year of manufacture is laughable.
Read a bit closer. The Wis MVD did not say this. They said modified Historic Military Vehicles must meet current Federal Safety Standards for a Hobbyist plate.
Also their reference to importing is not only to foreign imports but any vehicle (manufactured in US or abroad) imported into the state with no prior State or Federal Safety Standard certification.
vehicle registration are now tossed out the window?
The Wisconites are getting screwed....
Good Luck!
Re: Letter to the Governor
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:23 pm
Josh wrote:Wes,
Im tired of it all. I might just put the rig up for sale, or part it out and be done with it.
YEAH.... TWO SAD THINGS HERE JOSH. FIRST, I HAVE LIVED MOST MY LIFE IN EUROPE, AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE UNITED STATES IS THE ONLY COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD, WHERE THE AUTOMOBILE IS SO INTERWEAVED WITH ITS HISTORY, AND MOST IMPORTANT ITS CULTURE. "CAR= AMERICANA," THIS IS A CULTURAL STRONGHOLD, THAT UNFORTUNATELY THE U.S. GOVERMENT SEEMS NOT TO REALISE IT ANYMORE, AS SEEN IN YOUR TROUBLE ABOVE AND THE POSTS BY THE OTHER MEMBERS. AND THIS IS SAD (I WILL TRY TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT AND TREAD LIGHTLY IN WHAT I SAY, EVEN THOUGH I SHARE YOUR FURSTRATION AND I WANT TO CALL DMV /ETC. NAMES OH, SO BADLY!!!!) THE OTHER SAD PART IS MORE COMPLICATED. I WAS "TRUCK RECORD #315" WHEN I HAD JOINED BACK THEN IN THIS FORUM. TODAY WE ARE MORE THAN DOUBLE THAT. PEOPLE ASK ME "ARE THERE ANY OTHER SUCH TRUCKS ANYMORE?" AND WHEN I TELL THEM THERE IS EVEN A FORUM, YOU SHOULD SEE THEIR FACES 
LOL. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE SHOWN TO FRIENDS OF MINE YOUR PROGRESS POSTS, AS WELL AS THE PROGRESS POSTS OF OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS FORUM. "MASTER YOTA", "BRET", "RETIRED GUY" JUST TO NAME A FEW. I HAVE DONE SO, TO SHOW FIRST THE DETERMINATION AND SENCE OF DIRECTION WE ALL SHARE MORE OR LESS CONCERNING OUR TRUCKS, THEIR CAPABILITY AND POTENTIAL, BUT MOST IMPORTANT THE INGENIUITY THAT ALL OF US HAVE SHOWN AT TIMES, EACH OF US IN HIS WAY DOING THE BEST WE CAN WITH WHAT WE HAVE TO MAKE THESE OLD IRONS MOVE UNDER THEIR OWN POWER AGAIN!! I REMEMBER SEING THOSE COMPUTERISED BLUEPRINTS YOU HAD ABOUT THE TURBOS, AND THOUGHT TO MY SELF "NOW WHAT? HE WILL MAKE THAT FROM SCRATCH? IS HE KIDDING?" AND THEN VOILA!! YOU DID. THE EFFORT YOU HAVE PUT INTO THIS RIG, I SAY FORBIDS YOU FROM GIVING UP. PERSONALLY, WHEN I HAVE A PROBLEM, I JUST "STEP BACK" A BIT AND TAKE A LITTLE TIME TO "REGROUP" AND PLAN MY STRATEGY. AS FAR AS I UNDERSTOOD, WES HAS GIVEN YOU SOMETHING TO FIGHT WITH. OR AT LEAST A LEAD TO SOMETHING. WORCE CASE SCENARIO? WHAT STOPS YOU FROM HAVING THE MICHIGAN PLATES FOR A WHILE MORE? UNTIL CHANCE PRESENTS ITS SELF. BUT DO NOT SAY YOU WILL QUIT AND SELL. GOOD LUCK FRIEND