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Cav Trooper wrote:Thanks for the phone number. Now, I'm in the decision mode, do I sip or do I replace the tires? I have read the articles over on one of the off road boards about siping, hand vs. machine siping, etc. and how well it works, most are talking about the mudder tires though. Now, looking at the new NDT's and they look pretty cool, but I still like the look of the originals though and mine are new original style tires. I hate and can't really afford to go through the expense of pulling them off and replacing. Also looking at maybe doing the front disc conversion (another big expense) since my brakes don't seem to work as well as I remember drums working. I think I may have to try re-arching the shoes since I know the previous owner turned the drums and most likely didn't have the shoes fitted. I know the shoes will eventually wear in but I don't want to ruin my day buy running over a couple of Toyotas trying to make a fast stop.

Cav Trooper

Consider this as it is 1 of the main issues; NDT's are not radial, you spoke of siping others had done; I'm not sure whether siping would make that much difference on a bias ply tire like the NDT. No, I'm not speaking with experience on this one, I have not done it on an NDT and would love to hear a totally HONEST result from someone who has. I have however run many radials on a M37, a radial tire that is balanced correctly makes one HUGE difference in handling characteristics.

The brakes I've done many. Turned drums are not a plus unless you install thicker linings on the shoes or shim between the shoe and lining to bring things back into the proper perspective. We have equipment to radius linings as is necessary for turned drums if using original spec linings; I can tell you up front, although necessary for a proper fit, it only takes contact surface area away from the lining. That does affect braking performance as the lesser the area of contact between drum and lining, the lesser the braking effort. I don't recommend radiusing the linings and we offer the service; it simply is not the better way. I don't care for turned drums either, M37 drums simply don't have enough meat to allow for turning with a good result in the vast majority of instances. What happens is they are so thin after turning, they heat up quickly; when that happens, they warp. When warped the show for good braking is OVER. Long story short, turning M37 drums and doing all the other stuff to the linings to try and produce a good reliable system may very well come out to be money not well spent and an unhappy result.

No good drums exist; they can't be bought at any price, know that up front. The fact many talk about using drums from 101 trailers with a top quality result is another myth as the trailers get the drums not suitable for truck service in the military since on a trailer, the brakes are only for parking. I've never installed a drum from a trailer on a truck with a good result, NEVER; and we've tried it all. The next thing you hear about is someone who offers NOS drums. That is like investing in a 60 year old NOS wiring harness or a NOS radiator. They are simply NO GOOD even if they have never been installed. Drums warp in storage, many different issues will affect this, that's a story for another day; just don't buy NOS drums even if you KNOW they are indeed NOS. Your money will be far better spent installing the disc set up on all 4 wheels; once in place quality wear parts are available over the counter at any decent auto supply; that way your $$ will not be wasted on trying to get a good result from a system for which the proper new parts simply can not be had any longer. I'll also tell you up front that the disc system needs a booster to perform really well; that is an easy modification and well worth the extra it cost.

Before I get accused of advertising to sell disc systems; let me clarify my standing. We install many disc systems on trucks we rebuild here in our shop. We don't sell disc systems to the general public. Ray Suiter is the sole source for them at this time. I said what I did not as an infomercial for disc systems, I have nothing to gain. What I said is just fact that you would do yourself well to consider before spending more $$ on a drum system that already has substandard turned drums in place. It's a losing battle. The $$ you will spend will serve you much better invested in installing a reliable power disc system, instead of being virtually wasted on a system for which proper drums no longer exist.

If an owner has a truck that has good original (unturned) drums on it; good quality original type rebuild parts are available and will produce a very good outcome. Again the addition of a booster is a superb addition to the system. Drums are the killer, if you don't have good ones; investing in a drum system rebuild is practically worthless.

MSeriesRebuild wrote:

Master Yota wrote:

MSeriesRebuild wrote:Never had issues with NDT's in any conditions, common sense and having some knowledge of driving in adverse conditions is much more a concern. Another big deal is keeping a watchful eye for the other driver who may be doing something stupid.

The "ICE" situation keeps coming up on the down side of NDT's, well if conditions are ice, they are perfect for staying off the road. I've driven with many different types of tires, haven't seen the first one that performed well on ice. Studs or chains are your only hope, and you better be really careful with that if conditions are ice.

No offense intended here Charles, but I would think that your location in the Carolina's wouldn't lend for alot of experience with winter driving in bad conditions. As a Canadian, we have 12 months of winter up here, with only 2 months of lousy sledding ( ). The NDT's suck, plain and simple in real winter conditions at anything even remotley approaching highway speed.

Now, as Charles pointed out, common sense and good driving practice will go along way to getting to your destination, but when that practice forces you to drive ALOT slower than the traffic around you due to poor tire choice, you've instantly become the danger factor on the road. You might not hit anyone, but as the slow moving anomaly on the highway, you chances of taking a rear end collision will skyrocket. Plus, as the NDT's no longer meet winter tire regulations enforced in most parts of north america, the likleyhood of having your insurance coverage denied in the face of a crash isn't worth running them at all. Safest bet is to leave the NDT's at home in the winter, or get some better rubber.

Obviously you have no idea of my background of being on the road in adverse driving conditions, but I won't bother to go into all of that, doesn't really matter anyway. You also have to realize that since we don't have winters down here like you experience in Canada, that brings out multitudes of inexperienced drivers when conditions are bad; that in itself creates the larger hazard.

Your right Charles, I have no concept of what your driving history is, and noting that you described it as "adverse" instead of "winter", leads me to think you've driven under some questionable conditions, but as stated, your history isn't relevant to the topic at hand. Your point about the multitudes of inexperienced drivers creating a larger hazard is a direct correlation to your location, and being a well prepared winter driver. Modern winter tires will work better at handling winter conditions (plowed roads with ice and compact snow) better than the NDT, no matter the location. I prefer to have every advantage when winter driving, some drivers choose not to stack the deck in thier favor.

As for siping, it makes a huge difference to the performance of a bias ply tire. Speaking from experience, the traction difference is akin to night and day. And it will work on any bias tire. My experience is with modern mud tires, Super Swampers in particular. Any time you can free-up the tread surface (thats what happens when you sipe a tire) and allow the tread blocks to move around a little to find friction, you'll get traction. The proof is in the visual tread comparison between a modern snow tire and the NDT. The modern tire has alot of small tread blocks with many little edges to bite into the surface. The NDT might as well be a drag slick. NDT's work much like a mud tire, great offroad, with good performance in fresh snow conditions. But as soon as the road is plowed to expose the ice and compact snow underneath, they're junk.

Ironic that you bring Super Swampers into the conversation. We all have our experiences and preferences as a result; Super Swampers are the biggest bunch of junk that was ever mounted on a rim in my opinion. I wouldn't give a dollar for a train load of them if I had to run them on my truck as part of the bargain. Those folks couldn't build a round tire if their life depended upon it. If I had to choose between any Super Swamper and a current manufactured NDT; my choice would be the NDT's hands down any day. The only other comment I can make concerning the Super Swamper brand on a M37; I've run several sets of swampers; various types, simply seeking for a good tire we could install with confidence on our rebuilt trucks; worst choices in tires I ever made. I'd rather have a recapped NDT, at least I wouldn't expect much from that.

I can see where an out-of-round tire can be a major hassle, not to mention a possible safety issue, for a tire designed for high speed highway use. The Super Swampers, however, were intended to be an off-road tire for use in soggy ground (hence the name). When used in that sort of environment, not being perfectly round doesn't make a lot of difference. A lot of mudders I know swear by them.

As always, the tire selection should be made with the primary use of the vehicle being the primary deciding factor. When the vehicle must be able to "multi-task," a compromise will have to be made and a less-than-optimum tire may be chosen.

The owner will have to determine how much inconvenience and/or discomfort he is willing to tolerate when making his choice.

Common sense should be a major factor in the decision, too. Unfortunately, common sense seems to be a rare commodity these days.

Lifer is right. That is why I went with the Michelins. The Super Swampers are road legal in the loosest of terms; I actually am surprised that the DOT registered them. They were originally intended to bomb around off road, and these guys running them under their lifted F450 dually diesels with 1K ft-lb down the interstate at 80 MPH are dumb. They wonder why the tires only last 10K...

I like the Michelins because they wear good, have a nice heavy carcass, are actually round, have a 65MPH speed rating (depending on which syle you get), and are a good compromise between, looks, price, and performance.

A big problem with them though is weight. they are very heavy. I can't pick mine up by myself, I didn't toss one on the scale before I mounted them up on the truck, but I bet they are north of 225 mounted up on a rim. As Charles said, the stock brakes are marginal at best, and heavy tires will only make it worse. Make no mistake, the Michelins are HEAVY, and I dont think would be a good match to the stock brakes.

Anoher option I haven't seen suggested yet is the Power King super all traction. Had those in a 900X16 on the truck before the Michelins, and was always VERY pleased with them. They are much lighter than the Michelins, very agressive, but have a nice center zig zag for good on road manners. I drove them in all conditions, mud, sand, snow, ice, bare pavement, and really, the only place they did not do wel was ice, but that point has already been discussed. they were good on dry pavement, didnt wander too much for a bias tire, balanced out with lead wights on the stock split rings, and were FANTASTIC in mud and snow. You can get them new still, I called on a set back last summer when I was hunting tires, and Pomps tire in sheboygan, Wi can get them for around $750 for a set of 4. Only reason I didnt go with them over the Michelins was I wanted the 1100X16 size, and the power kings biggest size is 900X16.

I mentioned the Swamper tires Charles because I've owned several sets, and as stated they are the best offroad tire choice available, and they respond to siping very well. And thats backed by more than just my opinion. They are a performance tire Charles, a niche, or specialty market tire; they are not for everyone, and at best are a poor compromise for a street tire. But I will guarantee they will outperform an NDT offroad anyday, under any adverse conditions, mud, snow, rocks, you name it. The sheer lack of anyone in motor sports today running NDT's proves my point even further. My own set of Super Swampers (36x12.5x15 bias ply) are well broke in, with several thousand street miles on them, and they are glass smooth on the highway, on a 4500# Toyota. Granted the lesser weight has lengthened the lifespan of the tires, but they don't shake, wobble, hydroplane, bounce, shimmy, or exibit poor road manners at all. Plus all four of the tires balanced out with less than 8oz. of lead on plain old steel wheels. Maybe I'm just luckier with tires than you are, although, after having four sets, maybe its something other than luck...

But back to the topic at hand however. NDT's suck on compact snow and ice, and not everyone who drives an M37 has the depth and breadth of Charles' driving experience to fall back on to make them "get by". There are vastly superior tire choices out there to choose from. A BFG A/T would be a much better choice than an NDT. Plus its a round, radial tire that has the weight rating to support the truck, or one of the other brands suggested.

NDT's would be my absolute last choice of tire to purchase ever, for any reason. But I'm entitled to my wrong opinion just as much as those who endorse the NDT.

I like the Yokohama radial Geolander M/T for off road and on highway combination. I like the Geolander A/T if it's mainly highway use. Never the first complaint from anyone we've installed them for. I just don't think the NDT's deserve the bad rap they are handed by some. I will say the newer NDT's are better than the older military surplus ones. Same tread design, but a different rubber compound that performs better on highway than the older ones did. The best ones I've dealt with are from Specialty Tire of America.

if you have money to throw out the window, the new Wrangler MT/R is supposed to be an awesome tire as well. The 17" rim makes them unpractical for most though.

MSeriesRebuild wrote:I like the Yokohama radial Geolander M/T for off road and on highway combination. I like the Geolander A/T if it's mainly highway use. Never the first complaint from anyone we've installed them for. I just don't think the NDT's deserve the bad rap they are handed by some. I will say the newer NDT's are better than the older military surplus ones. Same tread design, but a different rubber compound that performs better on highway than the older ones did. The best ones I've dealt with are from Specialty Tire of America.

Finally something we can agree on

Yokohama makes an excellent tire.