Lube List

Discuss fixes, upgrades and modifications to your M37

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ez8
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Lube List

Post by ez8 »

Is there any consensus on what modern lubricants are preferred for the M37?

Engine
Steering Box
Front and Rear Differentials
Transmission
Transfer Case

My current plan is to use Valvoline VR-1 30W for the engine, 75W-90 for the diffs, and GL-4 for the Transmission and Transfer case.

There was a good thread I found on this site where one member was advocating loudly for Amsoil, but there distribution scheme is convoluted and I'd like to use things that are easy to source. Your help is much appreciated.
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Re: Lube List

Post by Elwood »

Lots of posts (and opinions) on this subject over the years here. The search function will find so many posts about lubricants that you'll go numb. :lol:

Here's what I use:
Engine: Amsoil Z-Rod Synthetic 10W-30
Steering Box: Mobilgear 600XP460 (also use this in the Braden LU-4 winch if you have one)
Differentials: Amsoil Long-Life Synthetic Gear Lube 75W-90
Transfer Case: Amsoil Long-Life Synthetic Transmission Oil SAE50 (also use this in the transmission)

Amsoil is easy to get. Just sign up online as a preferred customer (http://www.amsoil.com/offers/index.aspx), and order direct. You'll get discounts, and free shipping (depending on the order size and periodic special offers).
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Re: Lube List

Post by just me »

And I use Rotella 30W in the engine. Changed every 1500 miles
GL4 in the differentials
Lucas Oil 50wt synthetic in trans and xfer case.
The modern version of Shell Valvata in the LU4 and steering box. (Worm gear oil. Formerly steam cylinder oil.)
Kroil to bust things loose
Motorcycle cable lube on the cable controls
Molygraph to lube MOST points on the truck
The brown stringy grease on the wheel bearings.
And contrary to popular consensus, powdered graphite on the speedo cable.
"It may be ugly, but at least it is slow!"
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Re: Lube List

Post by ZGjethro »

EZ8, I'm running the same valvoline racing oil, just for the high zinc. I change it once a year, or 500 miles, whichever comes first. Also running 75-90 gear oil in the diffs and gearboxes. I think I will change out the gear boxes to the 50wt amsoil transmission oil. I run amsoil in my daily drivers and dirt bike and buy it factory direct
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Re: Lube List

Post by NAM VET »

While I may be changing my engine oil to the Amsoil Z rod oil, formulated with a higher "zinc", after a second change with Competition Cam's break in oil, my own preferences are pretty much in line with others.

While I am certainly no petroleum engineer, I have been quite interested in engine lubrication since the mid '60's, with both good and disastrous consequences. Back then, it was customary to switch from a straight non-detergent 30 to a 10 wt in the winter. The early multigrade oils suffered early shear, and would soon be rated at the thinner wt. Some oils now are better at resisting "shear" than others. When I was in Germany in the late '60's and early '70's, my friends running the then new Mobil 1 multi-wt oils were suffering engine failure in their Porsche's. I was an early convert to synthetic lubricants, and have used them exclusively for decades in any motor I have that has one or more pistons. As good as modern engine oils are, synthetics are even better, especially the ester based ones. Then there are the "cracked" synthetics like the Castrol synthetics, who won in a lawsuit with Mobil the right to advertise their oils as synthetics, despite being an ultra-refined (cracked) oil, instead of starting with a different base stock, like Mobil 1 does. Then there are the "boutique" oils, specific for this or that use. The additive package in an oil is essential too, anti-foam, corrosion, some adhesiveness to stick to dry bearings, the detergent, anti-wear, seal protectors, to the point that some oils have up to 25% of the oil being the additive package.

I think there are five "grades" of engine oil classifications, as I recall, grade 3 is conventional oil, grade 4 most synthetics, and a few oils are grade 5. Mobil 1 is grade 4, and my own preference, Redline, is one of the few grade 5 oils. As you know, car manufacturers have insisted that oils keep reducing the anti-wear package (the "zinc/phosphorous" thing), as they can hasten the loss of catalytic converter function, a long term warranty issue by law. Up until recently, most oils had about 1200 ppm of these additives, and many oils are now down to as low as 700 ppm. Roller lifters require much less than a solid lifter motor. But there are many wear points in an engine, not just the cam lobes.

There is the oft-quoted historical statement that 90% on an engine's wear is at start-up, although I have read this is part myth. But in our motors which sometimes sit for awhile, or have to crank thru a flooded condition, it likely is the key time for bearing wear. In my former Superformance Cobra replica, I added an accusump, and pushed two quarts thru the motor before any start, even if it was only off for a few minutes. I have thought about adding one to my newly rebuilt 37's motor. The other consideration we have is our full time, partial filter system, which causes unfiltered oil to be constantly circulating in our motors. So the best way to keep debris out of the oil is frequent hot drains and replacement. My philosophy has always been "oil is cheap, engines are expensive."

Four decades ago, when I bought a new car, I would buy some "engine oil supplement" from GM, and add it to the oil, and change the oil within 500 miles or so. Back then, factory engines often had a special "break-in oil" as a factory fill. I don't think any do anymore. You can look up the technical specifics of any oil now, and see what the pour point is, the flash point, and especially the ppm of the anti-wear package. You can buy anti-wear additive now, I use a little in every fill of my engines, but you have to be careful, as it can upset the manufacturer's concoction. Modern motors run hot, they are more efficient that way. But ours don't, so condensation doesn't boil off rapidly, and this may hasten acid development, another reason for more frequent changes especially for a motor that sits for any prolonged time.

So, all good suggestions above, and in the search threads here.

I bought the special Mobil 400 or 600 steering box and winch oil online from Walmart, a gallon is like $25. It is so viscous it is like pouring cold honey.

Be careful running a high-detergent synthetic oil in an elderly motor, as it may result in putting a lot of old sludge into circulation. An oil with a high ppm of the anti-wear additive package is essential, the smaller producers feature that prominently in their advertising. By the way, several years ago, I happened to be chatting with Joe Gibb's wife, and asked her if her personal cars run the Driven oils. She told me no, only in their race motors.

For the axles and big four wheel box, be sure to use an oil suitable for Hypoid gears, I use RedLine gear oil, it specifies it is good for high stress Hypoid gears.

Transmissions are tricky, depending on what metals may be inside. Brass doesn't like the GL 5 oils, so in my transmission I have instilled RedLine MTL, a synthetic GL4 safe lube, besides, I had good luck with it making my synchro's work well especially when cold in an assortment of gearboxes, especially my Tremec's. Which company specs a good ATF for their boxes, the MTL and MTL 90 are rated as a 50wt oil, the latter a bit higher.

I use the RedLine grease in my pump gun, but any good synthetic would be just as good.

I am getting the inside-cab sheetmetal back in place, and then putting the fenders and lights back on my own just rebuilt engine/truck. There is actually a distant light "at the end of the tunnel" for my own 7 month saga with all this.

Getting an engine running that has been sitting for some time is a whole 'nother topic, and there are lots of opinions and experiences with that here and in other places. Such an endeavor is fraught with potential for severe damage. These motors may be primitive and low tech, but they require just as much precise attention to detail as any modern engine.

I think the best place to start is, can you turn the motor by hand, and find a way to pre-lube it. I did the latter for my own just re-built motor by temporarily screwing in a NPT/hose nipple fitting into a main gallery site. And old gas doesn't start well, either. Charles Talbert at M37rebuild is a wealth of knowledge about these engines. He has helped me a lot with advice and concerns, and he is generous with his time if you call him.

Welcome, and best wished as you begin your own journey.

NAM VET
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Re: Lube List

Post by UZIS9MM »

Some questions:

What's a good source for GL-4? I can't seem to find it at any of the big auto fluid retailers.

Who carries the Redline products?

What brand names still have a high zinc content, where are they available?

I live in Minneapolis and have a hard time finding specialty oils like what the M37s like, so I've just been winging it over the years. I would love to run the proper oils but I can't find them anywhere off the shelf.

I've been running Fleet Farm brand 30 weight with 1 quart Royal Purple break-in oil (for zinc) in the engine - seems to work good.
Lucas gear oil in the front and rear diffs, Lucas gear oil mixed with Fleet Farm GL-5 (they don't carry GL-4 anymore, and I can't seem to find it anywhere in the metro area without ordering 30 plus gallons or more.), again seems to work okay, although the tranny does tend to run a little warm. I would really like to run a 50 weight in the transmission but again it just seems that nothing is available.
Lucas grease in the wheel bearing and all of the zerks.
I run the gear oil that we put in our worm drives at work in my winch and steering box. I don't know what it is but it comes from Mobil in a 55 gal. drum and it is super thick and recommended for worm drives.

Please critique what I use and steer me in the right direction.

Thanks

Kevin
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Re: Lube List

Post by Chris P »

Thanks to everyone for all this great info!

Nam Vet,
Is one one of these what you're using in your steering box, or close enough to it?

https://www.zoro.com/mobil-mobilgear-60 ... /G0275046/

https://www.zoro.com/mobil-mobilgear-60 ... /G2797767/

Thanks again
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Re: Lube List

Post by NAM VET »

yes, the 400 is for warmer temps, the 600 for really warm temps. At 12 oz per fill of the steering box, a gallon will last you a lifetime.

NV
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Re: Lube List

Post by NAM VET »

the RedLine MTL is a 50 wt oil, with balanced lubricity for good synchro meshing. You can look up all the RedLine products (and I am sure Amsoil has the same information), and read the specifics of their gear oils. I run the 75-90 wt differential oil in my transfer case and both axles, they are suitable for hypoid diffs. MTL is listed as safe for brass in transmissions. I order mine via Summit racing or Jegs racing. Their synthetic multi-wt oils have a high ppm of the antiwear additives. Amsoil has similar oils. But if your engine has miles on it, perhaps unwise to go full synthetic. The Joe Gibbs Driven oils have high levels of antiwear too.

I would avoid race oils, as they are meant for very frequent changes, and have a very different additive package, and hence more "oil" in them. But may lack anti corrosion and the component that aids in retention in bearings. By the way, putting in a magnetic drain plug will give information at changes, and keep at least some of the wear particles out of circulation. The oil filter is a pf 53 by Baldwin, you can get them on-line for about $13 or so each. Our trucks have the so-called "Junior" military oil filter. Don't misplace the spring that sits on top of the oil filter, pressing it down for a good seal. I almost lost mine the first change.

just came i from putting the passenger side fender and splash panel and side cover in, went in OK. All new Grade bolts. Now, dinner then off for a competition shoot tonight.

By the way, I posted incorrectly above about the steering/winch gear oils, the two XP 600's only different for differing ambient temps.

NV
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Re: Lube List

Post by sturmtyger380 »

Since the oil filter is the bypass type and does not do that much filtering, how many of you change your filter when you change the oil?

If you don't change it with each oil change how often do you change the filter?

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Re: Lube List

Post by NAM VET »

I hadn't driven my truck enough before taking the motor out to think about how often I should change the filter. But it is easy to inspect when out, and it is a huge filter, so as long as the canister is wiped out well, it could be easily used again. But then, the filters are cheap, and motor's are expensive. I have a half dozen on the shelf.

NV
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Re: Lube List

Post by just me »

I change it every time. Even though that isn't Dodge's recommendation. But then, they want to sell you more vehicles, not more filters.
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Re: Lube List

Post by NAM VET »

yeah, kind of interesting to recall that a few decades ago, it was a suggestion from auto manufactures to change the filter every other oil change. On some of our cars, I use a suction device to suck the sump of oil, leaving in the filter, at what i consider my own mileage standard, then changing both as the odometer approaches the manufacturer's recommendation. Our family Mini's have a filter that is a bit of work to get to, and it always drips oil on the lower motor and hoses, makes a mess I have then to deal with. I would never leave oil in as long as it is suggested now a days. Maybe partly because lots of manufacturers will provide "free" oil changes during the warranty period. Like once or twice in the first 3 years/36K miles. Cheaper for them.

Not me, I keep the Texas oil refineries in business.

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Re: Lube List

Post by just me »

I did, in order to not need the suction gun, put a 1/4 turn valve in the bottom of my filter housing. Then screw a plug in the end of it for safety. Now, I remove plug, open valve and drain into a container. Much easier and cleaner. (If I don't drop the container by accident.)
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Re: Lube List

Post by ez8 »

I want to thank you all for your input. I decided to go with:

Transmission / Transfer case: Redline MTL
Differentials: Synthetic 75w-90

Now Engine oil...I've flipped and flopped on using the VR-1 because the "street legal" version, while containing enough ZDDP, is a detergent oil. The "not for street use" in the black bottle VR-1 is a non-detergent oil also high in ZDDP. But I got thinking: What did the Army originally use?

So I did some digging:

Exhibit 1: TM9-2835 Lubrication May 1949
Section IV Lubricants, 16.i.2 Heavy-duty engine oil.
(a) Engine oils supplied under Specification USA 2-104 are the heavy-duty type and possess two characteristics which are not inherent in straight mineral oils, namely: detergency and high resistance to oxidation. These qualities are obtained by blending chemical additives in the finished engine oil. Detergency prevent the formation of acid, varnish, and sludge deposits in new or clean engines and cleans or dissolves deposits previously formed from the use of straight mineral oil. This cleaning action dissolves the varnish or gums which act as carbon binders and carries them in suspension in the oil. Large particles of carbon and sludge are removed by the oil filter or cleaner. Fine particles carried in suspension and not removed by the oil filter are too small to cause any harmful effects. Detergency likewise enables the heavy-duty engine oils to carry in suspension fuel blow-by and oil oxidation products which might eventually result in engine deposits. This is why heavy-duty engine oils usually turn black within the first few hours of operation.
It goes on to list the procedures for changing from mineral oil to heavy-duty engine oil in in-line or V-type engines.

Specification USA 2-104 was issued between 1941 and 1943 (http://rehkal.com/technical-info_pdf/U. ... ations.pdf) so it's safe to say that the army was supplying it's motor pools with detergent oil as early as WW2 so by 1963 when my truck entered service I can reasonably assume it was never given non-detergent mineral. However, the technology of the flathead engine and the accompanying "oil filter" is technology that dates back to the 30's and it's basically an accessory so non-detergent oils would have been the order of the day in the 1930's to capture all the particles floating around the crankcase.

With all that in mind I still can't decide so I'm going to drop the oil pan and peer inside. :D
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