ZDDP and flat tappet engines ??

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rixm37
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ZDDP and flat tappet engines ??

Post by rixm37 »

I just read about the loss of ZDDP additive in oils Apparently it has been in oils for years but has been removed because of engine sensor failures on new engines. It contains zink and posphorus. The article claims that older engines pre 1995 will suffer camshaft lobe flattening because of the loss of this. IS THIS TRUE? :shock:

Here is a link to the aricle.

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... index.html
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Post by rixm37 »

Here is a link to the Cadillac LaSalle club forum where ZDDP is discussed. This is not good news for older engines :shock:

http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/foru ... 186.0.html
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ZDDP replacement

Post by pfrederi »

Some places are already selling ZDDP to add to your oil. (Eastwood.com for one) but the price is ridiculous. I think it is $9 a bottle which is enough for to do one 5 qt oil change... That is more than the oil!!!.


I have the M37 an M274, 2 old Case tractors and 6 older Wheel Horse Garden Tractors...all have the flat tappets and should have ZDDP. I would have to sell one just to buy enough additive.. I may buy some to add to the hardest used items (the air cooled Kohlers on two of the WHs get heavy hot summer use mowing) and one of the Case tractors that mows a lot also. I am afraid the others will have to take their chances as use is fairly light and the oil gets changed frequently
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Post by m-37Bruce »

Charles swears by the Rotella, which I read has the zinc added,
True or False?
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Post by MSeriesRebuild »

This subject came up on another forum a couple of years back, it isn't a recent change in oil additive packages. We were in the process of changing over to Royal Purple synthetic at the time. I checked with the Royal Purple Rep who was a personal friend. He provided proof that these additives were never in Royal Purple products. Royal Purple is regarded as a TOP quality brand & may well be the best out there today. I wouldn't worry over this issue, just do your homework & use premium quality products that have designed superior additive packages around & in spite of these issues such as Royal Purple has done. I don't know where others such as Amsoil for example stand on this issue.

Regardless of issues such as this, you need to educate yourself concerning lubricants frequently. They are constantly changing to keep up with manufacturers specs & the EPA. Numerous run of the mill products that were name brands a few years ago have turned into rather junky products today, so that old stand by that your Dad always used may be choking your engine to death these days. Many go lacking in a number of areas due to making a cheaper product in order to stay competitive. Lubricants are a deep subject today, you will certainly be ahead of the game to educate yourself accordingly. Al Gore & his other GREEN cronnies will have it so water has to be poured into your crankcase, won't matter it will cause catastrophic failure. These nuts are actually that stupid, so beware. This is exactly the issue with the zinc & phosphorus. They want all the older engines off the road anyway, they feel they are really doing the world a service when all they are doing is pushing their own agenda. Amounts to big $$ in their pockets from tax payers no less. Are they really that interested in "global warming", in my opinion no such an issue exist. They are quite interested in the $$ into their pocket issues though.
Last edited by MSeriesRebuild on Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M-Series Rebuild

Post by MSeriesRebuild »

m-37Bruce wrote:Charles swears by the Rotella, which I read has the zinc added,
True or False?
Not sure if it still does or not, if it does, it likely won't have for long. The only reason we use Rotella is as a break in oil. We do recommend Rotella "T" or Chevron DELO 400 in the 15-40 grade to people who choose not to pay the extra $$ to get a premium quality top of the line product. These are good oils, but Royal Purple is our recommended brand, however we don't use Royal Purple in our rebuilt engines during break-in because its superior lubricating qualities won't allow the rings to seat. The same thing applies to the new Cummins engines we install. Royal Purple does not recommend using its products in a new diesel engine before it has logged at least 10,000 miles simply because a proper break-in will not take place & will result in excessive oil consumption. Royal Purple specs say it's fine to use it in a rebuilt gasoline engine, but we never have, just not taking the risk of an improper break-in as that would mean a re-do at our expense. After 5,000 or so miles, we recommend customers change over to Royal Purple 15-40.
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Post by rixm37 »

Thanks Charles. I have delt with water in my engine (not my M) don't like that stuff at all.. OK in light of what you said I spent some time today checking out some of the major oil brands. Penzoil, Quaker State, Mobil 1 and Valvoline. I sent an email to each one asking them about the zddf additive and camshaft wear. I am now waiting to see what kind of answers come back .
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Post by rixm37 »

Here is what Valvoline has to say about additives

This is the real story behind the myths. With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for engine oil. The current API standard is “SM,” which replaced the previous “SL” classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle’s emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current engine oil. Because of this, many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in “SM” engine oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new engine oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible, which in turn has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern engine oil is not adequate to protect older engines.
Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the engine oil where it protects the engine, instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car engine oils, including SynPower which is the only synthetic offering this additive.
The only exclusion to this would be if you are operating a high performance or aggressive cam application, where high Zinc levels may be required. Because of these requirements, there are high-zinc engine oils available to meet this need, such as our Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil. The VR1 Racing Oil establishes a 75% higher zinc content than SM engine oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines and carries an oil change interval recommendation of 3 month/3,000 miles.
It is important to note, however, that the entire additive package still needs to be balanced for best performance. For example, engine oil with a high zinc level but low detergent may not perform over a drain interval of 3,000 miles or longer.
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Post by rixm37 »

Just got an answer from Exxon/Mobil

For the older engines that have the flat tappet type valvetrain you can utilize certain products that have the higher ZDDP levels.

Mobil1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W40
Mobil1 Racing 4T 10W40 or Mobil1 V-TWIN 20W50 motorcycle motor oils.
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W40 (conventional)
Mobil1 15W50's
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Post by rixm37 »

Just got a return form Penzoil/Quaker State

The zinc and phosphorous levels were recently reduced (from the API
SL levels) as there has been concerns that the oil that makes its way
in to the combustion zone of your engine, carrying these anti-wear
metals, were burning and poisoning the catalyst in the catalytic
converters. If you are seeking higher zinc and phosphorous contents
you may have to look to racing oil. We have a product that is called
Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 50, 60 and 25W-50.
It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear
protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection
would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40.

Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss
this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical
Information at 1-800-237-8645.

Sincerely
Product Technical Service
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Post by monkeymissile »

Thanks for posting all of these comments, it's really interesting and helpful. And I appreciate you simply presenting the info without opinion or misinformation
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Re: ZDDP and flat tappet engines ??

Post by 808morgan »

For anyone looking this up more recently, there was a Jay Leno's Garage episode about Archoil and their Friction Modifier, basically it's a better option than ZDDP for older engines. I have been using it in my 240Z as well. It's boron based rather than Zinc, much better in lab tests.
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Re: ZDDP and flat tappet engines ??

Post by MSeriesRebuild »

We have changed over to AMSOIL products several years ago. Royal Purple dropped several products from their line in what seemed to be an effort more geared to the industrial market over the automotive side. Certain products got hard to get, certain ones no longer existed and this prompted our change. We have had great results with the AMSOIL line, we have used it exclusively for a good while now. We don't use it in the new diesels, they recommend Cummins Premium Blue, which is a Valvoline Product. Specs now call for the 5-40 grade in the newer engines. I do run the Amsoil in my older Cummins engines that have logged enough miles to be fully broken-in. In our new, rebuilt Dodge 230 engines, we start with AMSOIL 30 weight Break-In oil, have had great results. I advise clients to run that product for 750 - 1,000 miles, at which time we recommend it be changed out to AMSOIL Z-ROD 10W30. This is a zinc rich product designed especially for older flat tappet engines. No additional additives or supplements are required when using Z-ROD. After several years, we have had 0 negative issues and no come backs.
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Re: ZDDP and flat tappet engines ??

Post by NAM VET »

Just to add my .2 cents. I ran my rebuild motor with Comp Camps 10-30, changed at about 50 miles, trace smudge on the magnetic oil drain plug, refilled with same, and just the other day, at about 600 more trouble free miles, changed the oil to 10-30 Amsoil Z rod, on Charles' recommendation. My local rep sold me 8 quarts for I think $57 bucks, told me he sells at cost because he gets a supplement from Amsoil as a dealer. Plus Amsoil put an extra quart in the shipment. Baldwin oil filter.

My oil pressure at hot cruise, say 35 mph, on the Comp Cams oil was about 54 psi, my pressure on the new Amsoil is the same. Again, trace smudge on the mag plug, not enough to smear on a finger nail. I run RedLine gear oil which is rated as safe for Hypoid gears in the transfer case and rear and front diff, and RedLine MTL 90 in the transmission. All new in each place of course. By the way, had a slow drip from the drain plug with the standard gasket, so purchased a one inch rubber/aluminum one from Pegasus racing and complete seal, no ooze from there now. I bought a half dozen. See:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... oduct=3245
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Re: ZDDP and flat tappet engines ??

Post by MSeriesRebuild »

Different subject, however lubricant related; we have seen very positive results. We have been using AMSOIL 50 weight long run transmission oil in trans and t/case for several years also. Cooler running temp in summer conditions for the t/case, cold weather operation better at start up, significantly easier shifting in the transmission, no stiff shifting while waiting on oil to warm up. Easier oil flow in cold temps means better lubrication in all components. It is a proven fact that most wear takes places during cold starts, you can actually feel the difference on a cold morning start. We run AMSOIL 75-90 in the axles.
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